Commercial speakers vs DIY speakers

[SYNTHesis]

£3k for those!



That's a pair of £65 tweeters and lets be really generous and say the bass/mid were £150 each. So that's £430 worth of drivers. Then we'll be very generous and say the XO's cost £300 for the pair and the cabinets £500(laughable that figure). That's a total of £1230 worth of material value. All those were generous figures also.



I ask again, 3k! Jesus that is plain robbery. I've built better speakers with a budget 1/5th of that!

[markb84]

have to agree mate, 3k does seem like a lot of money for them, with that money there are a few other speakers that i would be looking at long before i came to look at them, they remind me a bit of rega speakers.

[Uncle Eric]

The finest ingredients put together by poor inexperienced chefs can taste like poop.



Conversely, a great chef can produce something sublime without spending fortunes on the ingredients ;)~;-)~:wink:



The guys at Reference 3a are masters.



Once again, my door is always open as always so bring your £3k speakers and lets give them a head to head with the Veena's :nod:

[martintyler]

£3k for those!



That's a pair of £65 tweeters and lets be really generous and say the bass/mid were £150 each. So that's £430 worth of drivers. Then we'll be very generous and say the XO's cost £300 for the pair and the cabinets £500(laughable that figure). That's a total of £1230 worth of material value. All those were generous figures also.



I ask again, 3k! Jesus that is plain robbery. I've built better speakers with a budget 1/5th of that!




You dont include your time in your budget then? :)~:-)~:smile:



So that leaves 1770 to build them.. tell us again how long it is taking you to build your current speakers? £1770 would barely pay for my time to lay the components out on the floor :)~:-)~:smile:

[Madge]

£1770 would barely pay for my time to lay the components out on the floor :)~:-)~:smile:


Either you work awfully slowly or I need to look into your line of work :lol:



Point taken though :nod:

[juboy]

I ask again, 3k! Jesus that is plain robbery. I've built better speakers with a budget 1/5th of that!




When you build your DIY speakers:



Do you have to pay for business premises?

What are the business taxation rates for those premises?

What are your utility costs?

How much does the implementation of Health & Safety regulations cost you?

How much does your accountant charge you annually?

How much money do you have to pay your staff?

How much National Insurance contribution do you pay on their behalf?

How much do you contribute to their pension scheme?

How much tax do you pay out of the budget?

How much do you spend on advertising the product?

What does your company website cost you to keep updated and hosted?

How many review pairs do you have to build?

How much do the manuals cost to have designed and printed?

How much does the packaging and outer boxes cost to have designed and printed?

How much does it cost you to exhibit at relevant shows?

What percentage do you give to the people who distribute them for you?

What percentage do you give the dealers who demo and sell them for you?



Also, how do you 'know' you've built better speakers? Have you heard the Reference 3a's in the same room as your speakers? Or is it that you've just whacked more expensive drivers into a box of your own design so they must, therefore, be 'better'?

[markb84]

The finest ingredients put together by poor inexperienced chefs can taste like poop.



Conversely, a great chef can produce something sublime without spending fortunes on the ingredients ;)~;-)~:wink:



The guys at Reference 3a are masters.



Once again, my door is always open as always so bring your £3k speakers and lets give them a head to head with the Veena's :nod:




Eric, would very much like to hear these as i'm sure the proof is in the pudding, however I was just saying that there would be various other speakers that i would be listening to before these as they dont look much for your money. I know that they are most likely very good though

[Bomb_Squad]

Do you have to pay for business premises?

What are the business taxation rates for those premises?

What are your utility costs?

How much does the implementation of Health & Safety regulations cost you?

How much does your accountant charge you annually?

How much money do you have to pay your staff?

How much National Insurance contribution do you pay on their behalf?

How much do you contribute to their pension scheme?

How much tax do you pay out of the budget?

How much do you spend on advertising the product?

What does your company website cost you to keep updated and hosted?

How many review pairs do you have to build?

How much do the manuals cost to have designed and printed?

How much does the packaging and outer boxes cost to have designed and printed?

How much does it cost you to exhibit at relevant shows?

What percentage do you give to the people who distribute them for you?

What percentage do you give the dealers who demo and sell them for you?



Also, how do you 'know' you've built better speakers? Have you heard the Reference 3a's in the same room as your speakers? Or is it that you've just whacked more expensive drivers into a box of your own design so they must, therefore, be 'better'?






And - have you given that £10 back yet?





Adz

[MattB]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">juboy wrote on Thu, 20 October 2005 10:14</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">




Do you have to pay for business premises?

What are the business taxation rates for those premises?

What are your utility costs?

How much does the implementation of Health &amp; Safety regulations cost you?

How much does your accountant charge you annually?

How much money do you have to pay your staff?

How much National Insurance contribution do you pay on their behalf?

How much do you contribute to their pension scheme?

How much tax do you pay out of the budget?

How much do you spend on advertising the product?

What does your company website cost you to keep updated and hosted?

How many review pairs do you have to build?

How much do the manuals cost to have designed and printed?

How much does the packaging and outer boxes cost to have designed and printed?

How much does it cost you to exhibit at relevant shows?

What percentage do you give to the people who distribute them for you?

What percentage do you give the dealers who demo and sell them for you?



Also, how do you 'know' you've built better speakers? Have you heard the Reference 3a's in the same room as your speakers? Or is it that you've just whacked more expensive drivers into a box of your own design so they must, therefore, be 'better'?






And - have you given that £10 back yet?





Adz






He's been too busy building £3000 speakers for £700 ;)~;-)~:wink:

[juboy]

He's been too busy building £3000 speakers for £700 ;)~;-)~:wink:




£700?!? YOU RIP-OFF, THIEVING, SCAM ARTIST!



It's £600, actually.

[Jimmy]

£3k for those!



That's a pair of £65 tweeters and lets be really generous and say the bass/mid were £150 each. So that's £430 worth of drivers. Then we'll be very generous and say the XO's cost £300 for the pair and the cabinets £500(laughable that figure). That's a total of £1230 worth of material value. All those were generous figures also.



I ask again, 3k! Jesus that is plain robbery. I've built better speakers with a budget 1/5th of that!





Both the Dulcet and the Veena look lovely.



<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">Uncle Eric wrote on Wed, 28 September 2005 19:40</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">SMP wrote on Wed, 28 September 2005 19:39</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
Handsome looking speakers, mate. What's the RRP though? ;)~;-)~:wink:


Hi mate,

The Dulcets are approx from £1695 to £1865 (depending on finish) and the Veena is just over £3k depending on finish.










Looks like a 1:1 conversion from $:£ yet again :?~:-?~:???: :(.





<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">SYNTHesis wrote on Thu, 20 October 2005 00:13</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
I ask again, 3k! Jesus that is plain robbery. I've built better speakers with a budget 1/5th of that!




When you build your DIY speakers:



Do you have to pay for business premises?

What are the business taxation rates for those premises?

What are your utility costs?

How much does the implementation of Health &amp; Safety regulations cost you?

How much does your accountant charge you annually?

How much money do you have to pay your staff?

How much National Insurance contribution do you pay on their behalf?

How much do you contribute to their pension scheme?

How much tax do you pay out of the budget?

How much do you spend on advertising the product?

What does your company website cost you to keep updated and hosted?

How many review pairs do you have to build?

How much do the manuals cost to have designed and printed?

How much does the packaging and outer boxes cost to have designed and printed?

How much does it cost you to exhibit at relevant shows?

What percentage do you give to the people who distribute them for you?

What percentage do you give the dealers who demo and sell them for you?



Also, how do you 'know' you've built better speakers? Have you heard the Reference 3a's in the same room as your speakers? Or is it that you've just whacked more expensive drivers into a box of your own design so they must, therefore, be 'better'?




Like I said ubove, these are being sold at 1:1 so lets say that they cost £1500 in the US. Thats means that these speakers can be made (quality ignored for a second) and I would hazard a guess made for a profit by the manufactors and sold by the reseller/retailer for a profit too. So that leaves £1500 for importation tax and the retailers profit over here ? Seems in my opinion a bit high. Just my opinion and could be totally wrong :D~:-D~:grin:






Once again, my door is always open as always so bring your £3k speakers and lets give them a head to head with the Veena's :nod:


That I would like to see.

[SYNTHesis]

Also, how do you 'know' you've built better speakers? Have you heard the Reference 3a's in the same room as your speakers? Or is it that you've just whacked more expensive drivers into a box of your own design so they must, therefore, be 'better'?




Why do folks think there's some kind of voodoo behind designing speakers?



And whacking expensive drivers together doesn't guarantee anything other than you spent lots on drivers.



I've bought whats consider to be among the best but still had to swap the bass drivers no less than 3 times until I felt happy. Its all about the sound and not any technical merits a driver or design has.



When I build speakers I lavish every technical measurement I have available. Then spend 100's of hours listening, tweaking by ear, repeating measurements and finally swapping things until I feel I have something that sounds good, very good. Here's a run through of what I did on a technical level to ensure I hadn't missed anything important when I became disappointed with my design:



<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">Quote:</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
I've isolated both the ATC and Seas and run individual frequency and impedance/phase measurements both with and without the XO in place. The only one I haven't done this with, and its because I don't fancy piping a fullrange signal through it, is the Scan ring but that driver isn't the problem.



All the plots look fine no peaks no dips aside from cone breakup on the Seas around 2.5Khz. These are two very well behaved drivers as far as measurements go.



Impedance matching has nothing to do with this since its active but I'll mention it anyway.



I've also tested the drivers mounted and free air. I'm showing the classic double impedance spike for the Seas mounted in a ported cabinet and they correlate well with the port tuning and driver Fs. The rest of the curve is well behaved aside from cone breakup. The ATC is remarkably flat in amplitude when mounted on the baffle with a minor ripple of around 2dB at 1.2kHz which relates to the baffle since it wasn't shown in free air measurments. I also think I've got a good baffle design because the free air vs. mounted on baffle responses look very similar.



I've checked to see if the cone breakup of the Excel is causing any unwanted sound output and with the high Q notch filters in place they are completely inaudable when testing using a high SPL frequency sweep with the XO in place and just the Excel playing in isolation.



Summation around the 380hz XO point is flat, no dips, no peaks which suggested good phase matching and indeed running a gated far field acoustic center response measurement with the mic 1.5m from the tweeter axis. It shows very good phase variance to within +50/-30 degrees from 130hz upto 18khz.



I've also run gated far field response on axis for each driver to check dispertion and off axis response. The ATC was quite exeptional here and the scan working well within this 'cone' of sound with a similar radiation pattern but more focused and limited in dispertion. Since the Excel is only used upto 400hz its actual dispertion pattern is naturally large low down and doesn't roll off until you start to get to around 50degrees and even then its only at around 300hz. All in all the dispertion of the ATC and Seas mate very well at 380hz suggesting a good candidate for a crossover point.

I did note some lobbing between the ATC and Scan at around 30 degree's off the horizontal axis. This seems to steady out though and the mid range becomes slighty more prounounced at 30+ degrees as the Scan starts to roll off rapidly above around 6Khz.




All this was near text book yet the speaker still sounded 'off', which proves that technically perfect doesn't mean great sound. There's a synergy between drivers that is very important, materials properties such as stiff, lightwieght, critically damped etc. etc. need careful consideration. Only after experimenting with different drivers did I come up with something that sounded very right.



Is all this any less than virtually all the speaker manufacturers do? No.



I'm not somebody who buys a load of expensive drivers and just guesses as to what's best. They've been a work in progress for 10 months and I'm an experienced designer at that. Most folks wouldn't get the sort of performance I have because they give up to easily and spend over the odds for commercial designs. I spent £3k on these yet they will beat or equal many more costly designs. Or I could have spent 3k on the Veena :roll:



Seems like a simple choice to me, DIY for 3k and get 15 or 20k's worth of sound or settle for much less and pay just as much.

[Madge]

IMHO the cost of a speaker breaks down into the following categories in descending order of cost:

R&amp;D

Design

Labour

Parts &amp; Materials



The reason R&amp;D comes at the top is that it frequently involves shelling out for the others repeatedly.



Design comes next, because to design something that uses a minimum of labour and cheap parts and still sounds good is something that very few people are good enough to do professionally (and there are a few out there who aren't IMHO).



Labour follows design, as ideally you want labour to cost as litte as possible, since it's a fixed cost for each unit.



For me, R&amp;D is expensive (it wastes time I could spend earning money), design is probably more expensive (anyone want to guess at the cost of a degree in physics or a related discipline), labour is expensive (again, I could be earning money instead) and the parts are perhaps the cheapest area (even usng ~£150 driver and nicely finished plywood).

[SYNTHesis]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">Uncle Eric wrote on Thu, 20 October 2005 09:07</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">


Once again, my door is always open as always so bring your £3k speakers and lets give them a head to head with the Veena's :nod:


That I would like to see.




Me too, I've heard some very nice speakers and what I have now is phenominal value at £3k. These will own anything anyone has on here for sure. Why the arrogance? Because I've yet to hear something better, and like I've said, I've heard some very nice speakers.



Its almost laughable how those Veena will sound compared to a finely tuned 3-way using some of the best components. 2-ways are always a compromise. Distortion, sensitivity, SPL and bandwidth will be worse in simlar priced designs from a DIY vs. commercial perspective.



Why do people think of DIY as second best? Is it because they don't have the know-how or maybe they do but are too lazy? Eitherway folks get ripped off everyday and whilst a commercial design maybe considered great value in light of other commercial designs the fact remains that, if done correctly, DIY hammers the commercial designs at the same price point. No one can argue with that exactly because of all the reason stated about overheads etc.

[SYNTHesis]

IMHO the cost of a speaker breaks down into the following categories in descending order of cost:

R&amp;D

Design

Labour

Parts &amp; Materials



The reason R&amp;D comes at the top is that it frequently involves shelling out for the others repeatedly.



Design comes next, because to design something that uses a minimum of labour and cheap parts and still sounds good is something that very few people are good enough to do professionally (and there are a few out there who aren't IMHO).



Labour follows design, as ideally you want labour to cost as litte as possible, since it's a fixed cost for each unit.



For me, R&amp;D is expensive (it wastes time I could spend earning money), design is probably more expensive (anyone want to guess at the cost of a degree in physics or a related discipline), labour is expensive (again, I could be earning money instead) and the parts are perhaps the cheapest area (even usng ~£150 driver and nicely finished plywood).




All pretty much moot though Madge.



Why? Well I'd agree if you were doing all that as commerial venture to make money but your building a pair of speakers for yourself. The only thing that you have to budget for is materials, time is irrelevant because you build these up when it suits you. Depending on how many hours you put in a day or week or whatever. It could take you a couple of months to a couple of years.



Its the end results that matter.



This also doesn't apply just to speakers:



Try buying a Krell KSA50B for £150. You see them go for ~£500-600 on ebay and that's for a potential 22 year old model. Its laughable that 20-odd years on its still considered a reference design by many journalists. It cost me £500 for 6 channels of KSA50B for tri-amping.

[SMP]

These will own anything anyone has on here for sure.




You know what EVERYONE who visits here owns then?

[Uncle Eric]

Its almost laughable how those Veena will sound compared to a finely tuned 3-way using some of the best components.


So now you can tell how something will sound without even listening to them? Wow, your speaker building skills must have come on in leaps and bounds.






2-ways are always a compromise. Distortion, sensitivity, SPL and bandwidth will be worse in simlar priced designs from a DIY vs. commercial perspective.


I love it when people make matter of fact sweeping statements like this. Your generalization above is just plain naive at best.






Why do people think of DIY as second best?


Maybe I need to read this thread again. Flick that chip away from your shoulder mate. Nobody said All DIY speakers were second best! Folks mearely pointed out the fact that you've spent hundreds of man hours on your speakers. Unless you're earning £2 quid an hour in your day job, that equates to thousands and thousands of pounds.






Is it because they don't have the know-how or maybe they do but are too lazy?


I need a new pair of black shoes. I'm sure if I put my mind to it I could knock up a pair without too much trouble. Then again, I don't think I could be arsed!








Eitherway folks get ripped off everyday and whilst a commercial design maybe considered great value in light of other commercial designs the fact remains that, if done correctly, DIY hammers the commercial designs at the same price point.


Hmmmm, maybe I should cancel that new car and just go via the kit car route. On second thoughts.....



I'm off to grow my own spuds. Bloody Sainsburys are a rip off w)

[Uncle Eric]

And - have you given that £10 back yet?



Adz




Take a guess!!!

[SYNTHesis]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">SYNTHesis wrote on Thu, 20 October 2005 15:50</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
These will own anything anyone has on here for sure.




You know what EVERYONE who visits here owns then?




That was bait.



Plenty of folks do it here, take a look back at this thread where someone suggested that a £3k pair of Veena's would be a good match for a standoff between £3k worth of DIY speaker. I took that bait also.



All this talk just has me itching to change peoples perspectives. I'm an extremely picky listener, the amount of effort I put into these DIY jobs shows that. Revised cabinets, amps, drivers, digital active XO's, DRC and the list goes on. Most folks would have been very happy with the first incarnation but I ripped it down and started again because I knew more was available even if it was only another 10-15% improvement.



I extend an offer to anyone who wishes to bring any other loudspeaker along and compare the two. Don't care how expensive or how cheap they are just feel free. Its obvious that folks think I'm biased but if that was really true I wouldn't have picked the design to pieces on the first and second incarnations.

[baileych]

£3k.


<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">Quote:</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
These will own anything anyone has on here for sure.


<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">Quote:</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
2-ways are always a compromise.


Genelec HT210B



If you've beaten this compromise, you've done very well.

[SMP]

Trust you, Charles! :lol:

[baileych]

Of course you can :D~:-D~:grin: !

[SYNTHesis]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">SYNTHesis wrote on Thu, 20 October 2005 15:50</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">


Its almost laughable how those Veena will sound compared to a finely tuned 3-way using some of the best components.


So now you can tell how something will sound without even listening to them? Wow, your speaker building skills must have come on in leaps and bounds.




Eric I've been doing this for years.



Contrary to the fairy dust spinkled about the web along with brand allegences and ulterior motives, I know what a design can an cannot realistically do.



A passive 2-way with 6.5&quot; mid/bass and a Seas Excel tweet(at least I hope it is)? I think I can guess what this will be able achieve having built similar designs.



</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">[b]SYNTHesis]


2-ways are always a compromise. Distortion, sensitivity, SPL and bandwidth will be worse in simlar priced designs from a DIY vs. commercial perspective.


I love it when people make matter of fact sweeping statements like this. Your generalization above is just plain naive at best.




Sorry Eric I should have stated that was my opinion and my tastes. Not everyone likes/needs low distortion at high SPL's or realistic dynamics etc. etc.



This is my opinion catering to my tastes:



2-ways by design are a compromise, they have to use a small bass/mid because of beaming and the reduced radiating area means less SPL and certainly worse distortion at frequency extremes. By making a driver work on a wider range your lowering overall performance in order to target that wider area. 3-ways use more specialized drivers that target optimum performance within a narrow bandwidth. The only problem is that your introducing another XO point but a decent designer can get elliminate this problem.



In general virtually all 2-ways are dynamically retarded to my ears, with no real sense of scale or realism. Compression and distortion sets in at SPL levels which are consider realistic ie. 105dB



Why do we have 2-ways? Simple, because folks like smaller speakers or don't care about dynamics or because they are cheaper or they don't need SPL. Pick one.



</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">[b]SYNTHesis]


Why do people think of DIY as second best?


Maybe I need to read this thread again. Flick that chip away from your shoulder mate. Nobody said All DIY speakers were second best! Folks mearely pointed out the fact that you've spent hundreds of man hours on your speakers. Unless you're earning £2 quid an hour in your day job, that equates to thousands and thousands of pounds.




I did all that for myself though!



I guess I could charge myself for it :D~:-D~:grin:



In your spare time do you still clock in and clock out? :roll: You do all this because you love audio not because you clock watch.



</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">[b]SYNTHesis]


Eitherway folks get ripped off everyday and whilst a commercial design maybe considered great value in light of other commercial designs the fact remains that, if done correctly, DIY hammers the commercial designs at the same price point.


Hmmmm, maybe I should cancel that new car and just go via the kit car route. On second thoughts.....



I'm off to grow my own spuds. Bloody Sainsburys are a rip off w)






I don't think anyone can argue that DIY vs. commercial speakers offers less value for money and/or greater performance.



So nice play on words but its hardly an apples for apples analogy.



Being serious now, tell you what Eric, what about a friendly face off?



I propose a standoff between the very best you have or can get hold of vs. these DIY efforts. We'll take a look at prices and then rate overall value for money, absolute performance, build quality etc. etc.



Better yet bring a few folks since we're probably biased in the extreme. It would obviously have to be a blind test to be fair to all involved.



Don't bring the Veena's though otherwise you may end up using them as firewood afterwards.

[SYNTHesis]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">SYNTHesis wrote on Thu, 20 October 2005 15:50</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
£3k.


<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">Quote:</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
These will own anything anyone has on here for sure.


<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">Quote:</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
2-ways are always a compromise.


Genelec HT210B



If you've beaten this compromise, you've done very well.






Every speaker is a compromise but the extent of the compromises can be lessened. The Genelecs like the Mackie HR626 I have experience with are among the best 2-ways.



I've compared the HR626 to the DIY and the differences aren't trivial. The HR626's are long gone now.



Studio monitors are much prefered to me compared to hifi examples though. Better performance alround for less.

[SMP]

Don't bring the Veena's though otherwise you may end up using them as firewood afterwards.




That's fighting talk! :nod:



:lol:

[Uncle Eric]

Every speaker is a compromise




After almost 300 posts you've finally said something sensible :)~:-)~:smile:



As mentioned, you're very welcome to bring your DIY jobs over. Just in case you need to get rid of them afterwards November the 5th would be a good day :lol:

[baileych]

In general virtually all 2-ways are dynamically retarded to my ears, with no real sense of scale or realism. Compression and distortion sets in at SPL levels which are consider realistic ie. 105dB




http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=getfile&amp;id=3255



:P~:-P~:razz:

[Uncle Eric]

Studio monitors are much prefered because there are a lot of Studio monitor owners on these boards and I should avoid annoying them too.






:nod: :D~:-D~:grin:

[martintyler]

It's amazing how many times you can contradict yourself in one thread SYNTH :)~:-)~:smile:



DIY is much better value, but you explain in detail how much time and effort it took you - right after a few of us had said that time is money. Yes, it may have been your spare time - but it is still time that the rest of us dont want to give up and are therefore happier to spend the money on a commercial speaker.



You also pointed out that there is no mystery behind making a good speaker, then go on to describe the trouble you had, swapping drivers etc until you found the right sound - er, isnt that partly what you pay for when you buy something, someone else has gone to that trouble for you?



DIY sounds great for you, because you enjoy doing it. The rest of us dont want to spend thousands buying and selling drivers, starting again, selling the finished product because it want quite right, starting again. It sounds to me like you have spent a hell of a lot (not just money) to get your unfinished great value speakers :)~:-)~:smile:

[Feandil]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">SYNTHesis wrote on Thu, 20 October 2005 15:50</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
These will own anything anyone has on here for sure.




You know what EVERYONE who visits here owns then?






HAHAHAH



dude... you have NO idea what you're saying



his &quot;simple&quot; speakers (actually VERY complicated) are beyond anything you can buy from a store



well I can think of a couple things that would be up there with his... but not anything people consider audiophilia



Wilson X-2? PUhleeze... his Perceive would completely destroy it



and his design is a baby of mine... which has already bested the Maxx II is side by side tests (well hearing them in the same day, 1 hr apart) :clap:

[Feandil]

So now you can tell how something will sound without even listening to them? Wow, your speaker building skills must have come on in leaps and bounds.










you can... in fact.... every way a speaker sounds can be figured out with the graphs etc from it



if you made another completely seperate speaker and all the FR, Distortion, power compression, impedence etc etc graphed the same... it would sound EXACTLY the same



I like Shin in fact can easily figure this out based upon many many things

[SYNTHesis]

Heh, hi Feandil good to see you here.



Here's a shot of Feandils impressive DIY effort:



http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-7/1050288/Good_pic_high_quality.JPG



http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-7/1050288/33410008.JPG



2 x 15&quot; Lambda bass drivers

2 x 6.5 PHL 1120 mid

1 x Custom made ribbon.



You see now why 2-ways are weak :lol:

[markb84]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">Uncle Eric wrote on Thu, 20 October 2005 </td></tr><tr><td class="quote">


So now you can tell how something will sound without even listening to them? Wow, your speaker building skills must have come on in leaps and bounds.










you can... in fact.... every way a speaker sounds can be figured out with the graphs etc from it



if you made another completely seperate speaker and all the FR, Distortion, power compression, impedence etc etc graphed the same... it would sound EXACTLY the same



I like Shin in fact can easily figure this out based upon many many things




Sorry but speakers are too subjective to decide which is better purely by looking at specs and graphs, yes you can decide performance and quality of reproduction however the final sound relies on too many things including reactions to the listening room, the equipment being used. Saying that you can tell how good or bad a speaker sound just from looking at pieces of paper is a little far fetched im afraid mate as speakers with virually identical specs can sound very different to each other. Hence although i think the reference 3a speakers do seem expensive i reserve any real judgement until having heard them. Also as martin correctly states, most people aren't prepared to dedicate all their spare time into making the ultimate speakers and would rather spend their valuable hours away from work actually enjoying the purchases they have made.

[SMP]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">SMP wrote on Thu, 20 October 2005 16:09</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">SYNTHesis wrote on Thu, 20 October 2005 15:50</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
These will own anything anyone has on here for sure.




You know what EVERYONE who visits here owns then?






HAHAHAH



dude... you have NO idea what you're saying




Dude,



You obviously misread what I said. Where did I say his speakers were simple? :?~:-?~:???:

[SYNTHesis]

It's amazing how many times you can contradict yourself in one thread SYNTH :)~:-)~:smile:




It sounds like contradiction, yes.



On one hand I'm trying to sell you DIY and on the other I'm trying to explain the differences between an average project and a no-holds barred project. Expect contradiction because I can't do both at the same time without it - read on for the why's.



<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">Quote:</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
DIY is much better value, but you explain in detail how much time and effort it took you - right after a few of us had said that time is money. Yes, it may have been your spare time - but it is still time that the rest of us dont want to give up and are therefore happier to spend the money on a commercial speaker.



You also pointed out that there is no mystery behind making a good speaker, then go on to describe the trouble you had, swapping drivers etc until you found the right sound - er, isnt that partly what you pay for when you buy something, someone else has gone to that trouble for you?




What I attempted was a near perfect speaker using the best components I could realistically afford. I wasn't copying any estabilished design either commercial or DIY, everything I did was from the ground up, including driver choices, cabinets even the electronics which is a tall order. Take a look at the cabinets of the current design, all those shapes and angles aren't easy to do with nothing short of a CNC cutter/router. I made it hard work by setting such high standards. I'm also incredibly picky, everything has to be perfect. The first ones went through around 5 different colours before I was satisfied and that's just the aesthetics not sound. Like I said before, most folks would have been very happy with the first ones and I finished those some time ago.



If I was aiming to beat those Veena, then I could do so much more easily and quickly.



<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">Quote:</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
DIY sounds great for you, because you enjoy doing it. The rest of us dont want to spend thousands buying and selling drivers, starting again, selling the finished product because it want quite right, starting again. It sounds to me like you have spent a hell of a lot (not just money) to get your unfinished great value speakers :)~:-)~:smile:




But that's the point you don't have to spend money swapping and changing drivers. My project was ambitious and if you want to do something similar think yourself lucky that it might only take you 3 drivers to find near perfection.

But there's 100's maybe 1000's of already documented designs that have all the hard work done for you.

Its dead easy and that's what I meant when I referred to DIY being simple.



Take a look here at Troels Gravesen's designs:



http://home1.stofanet.dk/troels.gravesen/



and my personal low cost favourite:



http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/HDS164+XT25/HDS164+XT25.jpg

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/HDS164.htm



Everything from the cabinet cutting dimensions to the crossover component list is done for you. Compare these to commercial offering and your laughing at how much you saved.

[SYNTHesis]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">SYNTHesis wrote on Thu, 20 October 2005 17:03</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">




Studio monitors are much prefered because there are a lot of Studio monitor owners on these boards and I should avoid annoying them too.






:nod: :D~:-D~:grin:






I spent £5k on my mains yet they sound worse the Synth's £3k DIY effort.



I install and sell speaker yet I wouldn't really know the first place to come up with anything that could be considered a decent DIY speaker design that I can put my name to.



Bored of childish games yet? As you can see, I can easily stoop as low.

[Uncle Eric]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">Uncle Eric wrote on Thu, 20 October 2005 </td></tr><tr><td class="quote">


So now you can tell how something will sound without even listening to them? Wow, your speaker building skills must have come on in leaps and bounds.










you can... in fact.... every way a speaker sounds can be figured out with the graphs etc from it






Objective measurements are a good blue print but ultimately there are many other factors which decide how a speaker sounds.



By the way, nobody here has seen any measurements from the Veena (which this thread happens to be about by the way) and nobody on this thread has set eyes on them let alone listened to them.



I'm sorry but when people make performance related comments about something they've not even seen not let alone heard, it shows total naivety and total lack of professionalism.



FYI, many of the most respected publications (http://www.reference3a.com/reviews.htm) and reviewers from all over the world rave about Reference 3a products. But hey, what the hell do they know.



Oh well, I'm off to my potting shed to build me an awful looking 50&quot; plasma. This 42&quot; Panny is begining to look a little small.

[Uncle Eric]

I spent £5k on my mains yet they sound worse the Synth's £3k DIY effort.






Yep, Mr Supernatural. Knows what any speaker sounds like just by looking at the brand name and counting the drivers. You crack me up mate :lol:

[SYNTHesis]

Well I don't need/want to hear or see them. I never said they would be poor in light of other commercial designs, nor did I state anything about the press being wrong. I believe all I said was that the value sucked compared to what I can knock up for the same price - with 6 channels of Krell KSA50B thrown in also for that amount :lol:



The value of those Veena suck in my opinion. Have fun with them though. :thumbup:

[SYNTHesis]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">SYNTHesis wrote on Thu, 20 October 2005 19:37</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">




I spent £5k on my mains yet they sound worse the Synth's £3k DIY effort.






Yep, Mr Supernatural. Knows what any speaker sounds like just by looking at the brand name and counting the drivers. You crack me up mate :lol:








These are so much superior its not even funny.



I'm sure you've listened to ATC's SCM50 Anniversaries? You seem to have connections to the pro industry. Well these speakers are almost identical except I use a better tweeter and the amplification is more robust. The cabinets on mine are possibly better built with 4&quot; thick baffles. I use DRC and FIR filters for the XO's and those ATC speakers retail at £12k BTW.



And you think your AC's have a chance? :lol:



The fact they cost me £3k for the speakers and 6 channels of amplification + DRC just rubs salt into the wound.

[adox]

These are so much superior its not even funny.



I'm sure you've listened to ATC's SCM50 Anniversaries? You seem to have connections to the pro industry. Well these speakers are almost identical except I use a better tweeter and the amplification is more robust. The cabinets on mine are possibly better built with 4&quot; thick baffles. I use DRC and FIR filters for the XO's and those ATC speakers retail at £12k BTW.



And you think your AC's have a chance? :lol:



The fact they cost me £3k for the speakers and 6 channels of amplification + DRC just rubs salt into the wound.




Are you on some sort of audio viagra or something?



Jees your back must be really sore from all the patting you`re giving it :roll:

[SYNTHesis]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">SMP wrote on Thu, 20 October 2005 16:09</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">SYNTHesis wrote on Thu, 20 October 2005 15:50</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
These will own anything anyone has on here for sure.




You know what EVERYONE who visits here owns then?






HAHAHAH



dude... you have NO idea what you're saying



his &quot;simple&quot; speakers (actually VERY complicated) are beyond anything you can buy from a store



well I can think of a couple things that would be up there with his... but not anything people consider audiophilia



Wilson X-2? PUhleeze... his Perceive would completely destroy it



and his design is a baby of mine... which has already bested the Maxx II is side by side tests (well hearing them in the same day, 1 hr apart) :clap:




Hey Matt



Have you heard back from Adire/Dan Wiggins regarding those custom XBL2 midrange drivers?



When you send the drivers out to the press and enthusiast for review I'd love to take a place in the queue. They sound awesome for the money.



Email me so as not to take this thread any further off topic ;)~;-)~:wink:

[SYNTHesis]

Are you on some sort of audio viagra or something?



Jees your back must be really sore from all the patting you`re giving it :roll:




Of course I'm incredibly proud of what I've built, especially for the costs involved. Its a shame I have to push it in folks face to get a point across. Anyone with an open mind and the know how wouldn't have to have this stated in such a blantent way.



Blame Eric for baiting me :lol:

[Jimmy]

Well are we going to do a test then ? Or is it really just all talk. Well even if it is I wouldn't mind seeing how these compare to the Aurums :)~:-)~:smile:









<font size="1">this could be my one chance to actually see the batcave</font> :lol: :)~:-)~:smile:

[Feandil]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">Feandil wrote on Thu, 20 October 2005 18:24</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">Uncle Eric wrote on Thu, 20 October 2005 </td></tr><tr><td class="quote">


So now you can tell how something will sound without even listening to them? Wow, your speaker building skills must have come on in leaps and bounds.










you can... in fact.... every way a speaker sounds can be figured out with the graphs etc from it






Objective measurements are a good blue print but ultimately there are many other factors which decide how a speaker sounds.



By the way, nobody here has seen any measurements from the Veena (which this thread happens to be about by the way) and nobody on this thread has set eyes on them let alone listened to them.



I'm sorry but when people make performance related comments about something they've not even seen not let alone heard, it shows total naivety and total lack of professionalism.



FYI, many of the most respected publications (http://www.reference3a.com/reviews.htm) and reviewers from all over the world rave about Reference 3a products. But hey, what the hell do they know.



Oh well, I'm off to my potting shed to build me an awful looking 50&quot; plasma. This 42&quot; Panny is begining to look a little small.












I've heard store bought loudspeakers leaps and bounds above these from reviews (Maxx II, BW 800, Avalon eidilion diamon, ML summit, Magnepan 20.1, Watt Puppy 7, etc etc)



and zero .... NONE of them can touch what Shin's made.... and I know this because I made something very similar to shin... and I'm listening to it right now...



Shin spent more on JUST the speakers in his than Wilson does for the speakers in the X-2... he also uses the same tweeter the X-2 uses just so you know



if money is everything Shin is king even over me...



but in fact all the speakers I've heard aren't even in the same ballpark as the Perceive or my speakers (lambda's with PHL and ribbons)



the extent of the ownage is IMMENSE even to the Maxx II's which I heard off of $20,000 Halcro amps and $10,000 transparency cables (these cables are a joke BTW)

[Feandil]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">Feandil wrote on Thu, 20 October 2005 18:20</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">SMP wrote on Thu, 20 October 2005 16:09</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">SYNTHesis wrote on Thu, 20 October 2005 15:50</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
These will own anything anyone has on here for sure.




You know what EVERYONE who visits here owns then?






HAHAHAH



dude... you have NO idea what you're saying



his &quot;simple&quot; speakers (actually VERY complicated) are beyond anything you can buy from a store



well I can think of a couple things that would be up there with his... but not anything people consider audiophilia



Wilson X-2? PUhleeze... his Perceive would completely destroy it



and his design is a baby of mine... which has already bested the Maxx II is side by side tests (well hearing them in the same day, 1 hr apart) :clap:




Hey Matt



Have you heard back from Adire/Dan Wiggins regarding those custom XBL2 midrange drivers?



When you send the drivers out to the press and enthusiast for review I'd love to take a place in the queue. They sound awesome for the money.



Email me so as not to take this thread any further off topic ;)~;-)~:wink:






I know we're all anxious to get them over here as well



you are in the queue for it no worries there... just after Al's finished



the money... well... the sound awesome FOR any money ;)~;-)~:wink: /eheheh



for the money though they sound ridiculous... almost makes you wonder &quot;wtf is going on here&quot; HAHHA

[SYNTHesis]

Well are we going to do a test then ? Or is it really just all talk. Well even if it is I wouldn't mind seeing how these compare to the Aurums :)~:-)~:smile:









<font size="1">this could be my one chance to actually see the batcave</font> :lol: :)~:-)~:smile:




Absolutely.



The only problem is that Eric lives way down south. But if he is willing to pick the speakers up and drop them back off after he's finished testing then he's certainly more than welcome. That's an open invitation to review these and compare without any constraints, I only ask you be truthful and honest despite any banter or preconcieved notions we have had on here.



I think that's the best way since I don't have the time to really make an 8 hour round trip plus a 5 or 6 hours worth of listening and comparing. Besides that Eric could relax and enjoy them without any pressure. It would certainly be an eye opener when he realised that he was listening to 3k's worth of speakers and amplification.



One note Eric, the frontend is entirely PC based and centers around an RME HDSP3264 soundcard. The XO's to the playback software to the DRC are all centralised on the PC. Its all entirely transparent to the user and all you'd need to do is cue up winamp and start playing either your CD or pick from the music backed up as lossless on the HD.

Because of the flexibility of the setup its entirely possible for you to tune the sound from the Console VST client plugin. At the moment its tuned for a flat response and with DRC catered to my room. If you like to tweak you'll love this setup.



Actually now I've just typed that, I realise that there's a good chance you won't hear them at their best since you won't be able to use DRC. They're tuned semi-anechoically flat before DRC anyhow and I think you've got excellent acoustics from the pics I've seen so DRC may be less beneficial here anyway.



So what do you say Eric?



You can get a few forum folks together and see just how much sound you can get for £3k? Failing that I could try to fit this around commitements and bring them down sometime.



Hopefully this exercise could encourage more folks to DIY and see the vast benefits.

[martintyler]

The fact they cost me £3k for the speakers and 6 channels of amplification + DRC just rubs salt into the wound.




You still dont get it do you? Although there may have been some people questioning the performance here, the main point which I and others started with that still seems to escape you with every post you make - add on the hours it took you to make them and you add up to a hell of a lot more cost than all (well most anyway) the speakers you claim yours beat.



You have acknowledged, and even detailed, the time it has taken, but you just keep comparing your components price with the full cost of a commercial speaker.



Even if you take one of these established designs you linked to, it would take most people a lot longer than you to make them, well actually most simply wouldnt have either the equipment or skills to do it at all.



As I said, DIY works for you, but dont keep going on about a price which just isnt true.

[SYNTHesis]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">SYNTHesis wrote on Thu, 20 October 2005 21:05</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
The fact they cost me £3k for the speakers and 6 channels of amplification + DRC just rubs salt into the wound.




You still dont get it do you? Although there may have been some people questioning the performance here, the main point which I and others started with that still seems to escape you with every post you make - add on the hours it took you to make them and you add up to a hell of a lot more cost than all (well most anyway) the speakers you claim yours beat.



You have acknowledged, and even detailed, the time it has taken, but you just keep comparing your components price with the full cost of a commercial speaker.



Even if you take one of these established designs you linked to, it would take most people a lot longer than you to make them, well actually most simply wouldnt have either the equipment or skills to do it at all.



As I said, DIY works for you, but dont keep going on about a price which just isnt true.






Well throw your hands up in despair because I'm going to do it again.



How on earth can you charge yourself in man hours for a pair of speakers you've made because you wanted value for money, the whole point of the exercise is to negate all the BS that raises the price of commercial stuff to daft levels. To me they cost £3k to others who need to protect thier commercial investments they state that man hours need to be factored in.



When I do a little DIY around the house I don't price up for materials and then add labour in on top, that's just daft.



Like I said your doing this because you want something for nothing. There's no such thing as a free meal and if you consider your time so precious at to charge yourself... well.

[martintyler]

You might not want to, but many do just that, even for a simple bit of DIY you can still weigh up the cost/effort/time involved in DIY vs 'getting a man in' or in the case of speakers, just buying them.



It is you that is making all these comparisons, you must have quoted your 3k a dozen times already. You dont have to add it up or charge yourself, but you cant compare the costs, its just completely different.



'protect commercial investment'? are you completely mad? If i were to undertake a DIY project like yours i would have to buy/rent a load of equipment, spend months and months making them (or take time off work and maybe speed up that process), learn how to use the equipment, take the risk of actually having enough skill to pull it off.... if you ask me, it is you that is desperate to protect the time you have invested in your '3k speakers' compared to an off the shelf pair.

[SYNTHesis]

You might not want to, but many do just that, even for a simple bit of DIY you can still weigh up the cost/effort/time involved in DIY vs 'getting a man in' or in the case of speakers, just buying them.



It is you that is making all these comparisons, you must have quoted your 3k a dozen times already. You dont have to add it up or charge yourself, but you cant compare the costs, its just completely different.



'protect commercial investment'? are you completely mad? If i were to undertake a DIY project like yours i would have to buy/rent a load of equipment, spend months and months making them (or take time off work and maybe speed up that process), learn how to use the equipment, take the risk of actually having enough skill to pull it off.... if you ask me, it is you that is desperate to protect the time you have invested in your '3k speakers' compared to an off the shelf pair.




The time I've spent on these is immaterial, infact I haven't mentioned it once. Others have done that. You must also consider that this isn't the normal run of mill DIY project, so its natural it would spill over any original estimates. If it sounded rough I'd say it like that and indeed I have done so in the construction threads over on DIYAudio when I wasn't happy with the bass to mid transition.



Its a case of I want £10-20k speakers for something I can attually stomach comfortably.



If your scared of the risks involved I've already mentioned the 100's of complete projects ready to build. Hell even getting the cabinets cut up, built and veneered would work out cheaper. This way you need squat tools and zero measurement equipment and certainly no required understanding of loudspeaker mechanics.



I guess its different philosophys at work here. You probably like anything for an easy life and I make everything hardwork, including replies on this forum :lol:

[baileych]

The time I've spent on these is immaterial, infact I haven't mentioned it once.




If you are trying to compare the costs of your speakers to other speakers which you haven't built yourself the time is *not* immaterial. If I wanted the best speakers possible for £3k in a months time I could buy &lt;£1k of components, take a few weeks off work and risk ending up with a pile of fireword and some junk destined for ebay or I could pick up the phone now (and really annoy someone), take no time off work and have speakers of a guaranteed level of preformance delivered to my room in, at most, a couple of weeks. It may not be your way but it certainly is mine.



Just because you don't value your free time doesn't mean that DIY labour is free.



Charles.

[SYNTHesis]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">SYNTHesis wrote on Thu, 20 October 2005 23:33</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
The time I've spent on these is immaterial, infact I haven't mentioned it once.




If you are trying to compare the costs of your speakers to other speakers which you haven't built yourself the time is *not* immaterial. If I wanted the best speakers possible for £3k in a months time I could buy &lt;£1k of components, take a few weeks off work and risk ending up with a pile of fireword and some junk destined for ebay or I could pick up the phone now (and really annoy someone), take no time off work and have speakers of a guaranteed level of preformance delivered to my room in, at most, a couple of weeks. It may not be your way but it certainly is mine.



Just because you don't value your free time doesn't mean that DIY labour is free.



Charles.






I guess from all the comments I either have:



A. No job

B. Too much time.

C. Too much commitement

D. A desire to build something I couldn't possibly afford without DIY.

E. A mixture of all the above.



I guess I failed once again to show people the benefits of DIY'ing. Its a shame because the benefits aren't just the cost saving or the performance vs. price. The real benefits are the learning experience, bettering one's self and your skills. Not to mention the feelings that you get as you pull one over the commercial stuff costing 5x the price.



You can probably see why I don't value the time now, its something I enjoy. Its a hobby. Its like you folks counting the hours you spend on this forum and then working out the economics of number of posts vs. encroachment on free time.



Perhaps if some folks used the time they spend posting on this forum and built speakers during that time instead... well the possibilities are limitless for some folks ;)~;-)~:wink:



Its a hobby afterall so why all the long faces when I say £3k speakers suck in value? There's the folks that say I'm completely wrong because I've never heard them but the point is I've certainly heard better for the same price and the difference won't be small. Its all completely and utterly true from my point of view.

[Squirrelecto]

The problem is that you have come onto a thread about a specific pair of speakers, which you have never heard (doesn't matter if you can guess what they sound like) and laid into them as being poor value compared to DIY speakers, as if these speakers are somehow especially worthy of singling out among all the speakers out there.



You have then just taken an estimate of all the materials into account, and ironically, by doing so made them actually look like pretty good value, considering they are professionally assembled and ready to go and all companies in the chain from manufacturer to dealer have to make a profit (which is not a crime after all, is it).



If you had started a thread on DIY vs commercial speakers, rather than using this thread to make whatever case you wanted to make, you would have probably found yourself engaging in much more agreeable discussion. ;)~;-)~:wink:



BTW, this made me laugh:




The only problem is that Eric lives way down south. But if he is willing to pick the speakers up and drop them back off after he's finished testing then he's certainly more than welcome. That's an open invitation to review these and compare without any constraints, I only ask you be truthful and honest despite any banter or preconcieved notions we have had on here.



I think that's the best way since I don't have the time to really make an 8 hour round trip plus a 5 or 6 hours worth of listening and comparing. Besides that Eric could relax and enjoy them without any pressure. It would certainly be an eye opener when he realised that he was listening to 3k's worth of speakers and amplification.






You don't have the time, but you want Eric to spend his time testing your speakers to make your case for you? Plus his money to collect your speakers and have them delivered back again. I mean, seriously man, WTF! :lol: :lol:



And why don't you have the time anyway? Seems very little time compared to how many hours you put in building speakers :)~:-)~:smile:

[SYNTHesis]

The problem is that you have come onto a thread about a specific pair of speakers, which you have never heard (doesn't matter if you can guess what they sound like) and laid into them as being poor value compared to DIY speakers, as if these speakers are somehow especially worthy of singling out among all the speakers out there.



You have then just taken an estimate of all the materials into account, and ironically, by doing so made them actually look like pretty good value, considering they are professionally assembled and ready to go and all companies in the chain from manufacturer to dealer have to make a profit (which is not a crime after all, is it).



If you had started a thread on DIY vs commercial speakers, rather than using this thread to make whatever case you wanted to make, you would have probably found yourself engaging in much more agreeable discussion. ;)~;-)~:wink:




I was very generous with the estimates on the Veena.



And the case is commercial value sucks.



</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
BTW, this made me laugh:



<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">SYNTHesis]
The only problem is that Eric lives way down south. But [b]if he is willing to pick the speakers up and drop them back off after he's finished testing then he's certainly more than welcome. That's an open invitation to review these and compare without any constraints, I only ask you be truthful and honest despite any banter or preconcieved notions we have had on here.



I think that's the best way since I don't have the time to really make an 8 hour round trip plus a 5 or 6 hours worth of listening and comparing. Besides that Eric could relax and enjoy them without any pressure. It would certainly be an eye opener when he realised that he was listening to 3k's worth of speakers and amplification.






You don't have the time, but you want Eric to spend his time testing your speakers to make your case for you? Plus his money to collect your speakers and have them delivered back again. I mean, seriously man, WTF! :lol: :lol:



And why don't you have the time anyway? Seems very little time compared to how many hours you put in building speakers :)~:-)~:smile:




I can't win can I?



I offer these up for Eric to see what's possible for 3k and maybe change his preconceptions. Folks asked for the comparison, citing I was all talk.



I don't have the time to spend an entire day driving to and from Erics with testing in-between. If I'd said no I'm not allowing Eric to compare these because I can't make it, folks would have laughed it off.



I know Eric spends time traveling the country and if he was ever in the neighbourhood then the offer is open. Keep them for a time and then return when he's back in the area or I could meet up somewhere to collect them.

[Squirrelecto]

OK, well, I've split the thread as it went way off topic and will leave this thread open for the discussion on commercial vs DIY speakers to continue ... :)~:-)~:smile:

[SYNTHesis]

OK, well, I've split the thread as it went way off topic and will leave this thread open for the discussion on commercial vs DIY speakers to continue ... :)~:-)~:smile:




Probably better if you just delete the thread. I think I've heard enough to form an opinion on the general concencus of DIY vs. commercial on this forum. I'll skulk off back to DIYAudio where every agrees with my ideas in unison and I'm seen as a god. :lol:

[baileych]

I guess I failed once again to show people the benefits of DIY'ing. Its a shame because the benefits aren't just the cost saving or the performance vs. price. The real benefits are the learning experience, bettering one's self and your skills. Not to mention the feelings that you get as you pull one over the commercial stuff costing 5x the price.






Up until now I don't think you have been selling the benefits of DIY. I can understand that it's very rewarding to improve your skills and to end up with something that you've made and are proud of. I have my own hobbies where I create things where I know there are commercially available equivalents readily available. It is, as you say, a hobby. In some cases I'd spend less time/money (I value my holiday!) if I just forked out for an off-the-shelf solution.



You're selling the benefits of DIY speakers to those who don't and you say &quot;the benefits aren't just the cost saving&quot;. I would argue that that should be &quot;the benefits aren't a cost saving&quot;. Certainly I think it is a weak initial argument (as it seems do most non-DIYers on this thread).



I know that for me there would be a huge initial cost in getting into DIY speakers. While I might (if I remembered everything right) be able to calculate the performance of a point pressure source in a rectangular enclosure anything much more complex (i.e. what you'd find in the real world) would probably leave me lost. So I'd need the tools to make lots of test cabinets, access to an approximation to an anechoic chamber, a decent microphone and some audio analysis software, tons and tons of time. I'd probably have spent the cost of your speakers before I'd tested any drivers, let alone chosen a cabinet design.



You'll notice that I haven't criticised the performance of your speakers as I haven't heard them. It would be very interesting to run some objective tests on them and then put them up in a blind test against a selection of other speakers with selection of auditioners. Otherwise we're doomed to baseless speculation when it comes to performance, and the only discussion remains around cost. Without both sides of the story there's no way to prove the benefits vs. cost of the DIY route.



Charles.

[martintyler]

I offer these up for Eric to see what's possible for 3k and maybe change his preconceptions.




What is possible for 3k, once again, is a pile of components sitting on the carpet. Yes it is a hobby, but you still have to factor that in - until you realise that you will always think DIY is better value.



The argument of out and out performance is a totally different one, which you seem to think everyone is arguing about, but i think only a few have really mentioned it and only in response to your claims about unheard speakers.

[Jeff]

Using great components always helps but at the end of the day it's all down to implementation. I would imagine that it would be quite easy put something together that sounds crap even though you have used the best components. Also if Synthesis's speaker are as good as he says they are he should invest in a better source because his PC won't do them justice. I'd be concerened about the amplification too.

[SYNTHesis]

Using great components always helps but at the end of the day it's all down to implementation. I would imagine that it would be quite easy put something together that sounds crap even though you have used the best components. Also if Synthesis's speaker are as good as he says they are he should invest in a better source because his PC won't do them justice. I'd be concerened about the amplification too.




Oh please.



The SQ differences between good proven amplifier designs is zero. Take a look at the THD figures, amplitude response, slew rates etc. and compare them to the very, very best loudspeakers. The differences are in the order of 10x+ in favour of the amp. If they could make a loudspeaker that specced like one of those £200 budget Rotel amps, it would be hailed as the best speaker on earth. Loudspeakers are the weakest link in the chain, get the room and the loudspeakers sorted and then worry about the difference of 0.01%THD vs. 0.02%THD :lol:



What your paying for when you buy that £5k's worth of mono blocks is excess engineering. Huge heatsink, massive caps, large torroidals, premium components etc.

The problem is you have blind faith, you plug something into the wall and hope it works. I've built 12 amplifier PCB's and a few PSU's, this has given me a lot more insight than I had prior to this. I've played with all sorts of boutique stuff like replacing standard polarised electrolytic capacitors with Black Gate one costing £3 each vs. £0.15. Or using tantalum dipped resistors instead of simple metal foil resistors. The difference to my ears? Zero improvement but slighty different tonal qualities. I didn't experience any sort of profound new sound quality and I've got some very interesting studies on such components in blind tests.



Here's one using Martin Logan Ascent speakers with Shanling CDT-200 and comparing a couple of DIY Gainclone amplifiers(an intergrated circuit based amp) against a Denon AV1SE. There are two version of the gainclone, one with high end components and the other with standard stuff. Read the outcome here:



http://www.vikash.info/audio/gainclone02/listeningtests.asp



What really makes an amp is high current delivery, low back EMF, good PCB layout and an oversized PSU with good DC filtering.



I wouldn't have doubts about the Krell class A amplification I'm using. Its perfect for my needs, big current delivery, low EMF, 90,000uf capacitance resevoir per channel with a series and parallel resistor/capacitor DC/EMI filter network. As amps go its certainly in the 'decent' bracket. Since folks are so keen on the press interviews, do a search for reviews on the Krell KSA50B, it seems the reviews don't share any such reservations. In fact words like 'reference' often come into the text. Personally I just think its a solid design with all the right specs for building a high quality system.



Your also sadly mistaken about the source too. I'm using upgraded clocks and DAC's on the already superb RME HDSP3264. I saw a FS add over on AVF or maybe it was here, eitherway the guy was trading a LynxTWO B for an MC8/4 and described the setup as a 'downgrade'. Well the card I have with the external clock and DAC's is like a LynxTWO B on steroids. There's loads of success stories on here and AVF about people getting better performance from using what you see as lowely PC sound cards. The only real problems seem to be the technical side of things - for some its all too much.

Fact is 99% of the music you listen to was mastered on a similar setup to what I have ie. sources, external clocking, external DAC's, integrated PC or MAC card(s) with VST/DX clients. :lol:

[SYNTHesis]

You'll notice that I haven't criticised the performance of your speakers as I haven't heard them. It would be very interesting to run some objective tests on them and then put them up in a blind test against a selection of other speakers with selection of auditioners. Otherwise we're doomed to baseless speculation when it comes to performance, and the only discussion remains around cost. Without both sides of the story there's no way to prove the benefits vs. cost of the DIY route.



Charles.




Also and similarly, nobody on here has made a case for commercial that's strong enough to make me want to rush down to Eric and shoot my cash into him.



Why thankyou Charles, at the moment I'd rather have anything for an easy life. So I'll fess up and tell you the real truth.



These speakers have been the biggest waste of money I have ever spent. The time I spent on them could have been put to good use forming a drinking habit or spending hours posting on a forum discussing equipment instead of listening to it. I don't want to appear a fool or look like I don't know the first thing about building speakers, so I come here and push it folks faces to make myself feel better. The fact is that I saw some pictures on the internet and thought 'I can do that!' in a naive way.

Then after I'd failed miserably with the loudspeakers I went on to compound my stupidity by deciding to build around 20 PCB's from amplifiers to analogue active XO's to PSU's to Linkwitz transform circuits. All a failure.



That's the truth.

[SMP]

The time I spent on them could have been put to good use forming a drinking habit...




I think you should have gone for that option. :)~:-)~:smile:

[baileych]

That's the truth.




Really? :?~:-?~:???: That's a bit of a change in tack.

[juboy]

How come DIYers don't make their own drivers? After all, the nazi-http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/images/smiley_icons/censored.gifs that sell them must be making quite evil levels of like 30% profit or something. They should be shot for being the highwaymen they so clearly are.

[SYNTHesis]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">SYNTHesis wrote on Fri, 21 October 2005 13:46</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
The time I spent on them could have been put to good use forming a drinking habit...




I think you should have gone for that option. :)~:-)~:smile:




Waaay ahead er yer... hic... urgh, I feel sick.

[SYNTHesis]

How come DIYers don't make their own drivers? After all, the nazi-http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/images/smiley_icons/censored.gifs that sell them must be making quite evil levels of like 30% profit or something. They should be shot for being the highwaymen they so clearly are.




We specify custom made ones from the likes of Audio Tech, Adire, ATC and others. That way we can have the perfect Thiel/Small parameters for any situation we wish to put a driver in. So we do have access to the ability to have tailored drivers.



There are folks who build their own drivers too:



Feandil built his own ribbons (pics of that speaker back a page or two) and Vikash has an ongoing study into building a transducer. Its comming on very nicely but you can see the early tests here:



http://www.vikash.info/audio/transducer_design/



There's a host of folks who've built similar things including horns and ESL's.



I guess you better do some research next time DS.

[markb84]

spending hours posting on a forum discussing equipment instead of listening to it.




Um, how many hours have you spent BUILDING your speakers rather than listening to them??? I get plenty of time listening to my system as do the majority of people on here, the advantage of buying things instead of making them is the time saved and the instant gratification for money.



<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">Swiss Tony said on Fri, 21 October at around Lunchtime</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
Purchasing speakers is a lot like making love to a bueatiful woman; you can spending years working on them trying to get it just right before you settle down to appreciate the effect of the effort you've put in just without knowing what the result will be or you can go to a shop, look at the final product hand your money over and get instant gratification!

[SYNTHesis]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">SYNTHesis wrote on Fri, 21 October 2005 13:46</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
spending hours posting on a forum discussing equipment instead of listening to it.




Um, how many hours have you spent BUILDING your speakers rather than listening to them??? I get plenty of time listening to my system as do the majority of people on here, the advantage of buying things instead of making them is the time saved and the instant gratification for money.




Folks are whining about how much time it will take but they think nothing of spending a good few hours per week on the forum. Some member virtually live here like SG. Like I said before that time you spend on here is just the same as me disappearing in the shed for an hour or two in the evening.



I guess folks just don't want to admit that DIY owns commercial. Instead they tip toe around it and take things off track and ignore the fact you can buy kits to assemble or are ready made and such like. They put it in a worst case difficulty scenario that's similar to what I've done with my project to make their points seem valid. DIY means a host of things so please don't make it seem as though my way is the only way, there's MUCH easier ways.



Take a look at these KITS, its like assembling an MDF flatpack or you can even have them fully built and finished.



https://secure.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/acatalog/Centurion.gif



https://secure.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/acatalog/Wilmslow_Audio_ (https://secure.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/acatalog/Wilmslow_Audio_Centurion___Build_this_speaker_for_ less_than__2000_154.html) Centurion___Build_this_speaker_for_less_than__2000 _154.html

Those ones retail for £2500 completely veneered, finished and ready to go. Take a look at the drivers and you'll see they feature in stuff like the £100k Wilson top of the range.



https://secure.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/acatalog/prestige2.gif



https://secure.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/acatalog/Wilmslow_Audio_ (https://secure.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/acatalog/Wilmslow_Audio_Prestige2_5.html) Prestige2_5.html

Or these for £2600 fully veneered and ready to go. ATC mid dome, top of the range scan speak treble and a 12&quot; Volt Radial bass driver.



The rest of the kits are here:

https://secure.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/acatalog/Wilmslow_Audio_ (https://secure.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/acatalog/Wilmslow_Audio_Wilmslow_Loudspeaker_Systems_1.html ) Wilmslow_Loudspeaker_Systems_1.html



If your still whining about not being able to demo, half of you buy blind anyway, they've got them on demo down at the store, so no excuses their either. You've also got a full warranty too.



Its laughable that folks would consider those pathetic £3k Veena in light of these two designs. See what I mean about the value sucks? Your looking at designs featuring some of the best drivers period and then you have those nasty and pathetic Veena with the cheap Seas treble and a weakass 5&quot; mid-bass. The really funny thing is that the Veena are still another £500 over those two. Oh sure what excellent value.



I know it hurts to think you've been ripped but even with all that I've shown some folks will still come up with the &quot;Well I'd have to spend £1k on tools, or I don't have the time&quot;. What I've shown you is that you can't use that weakass excuse, everything can be done for your lazyass and it still works out cheaper by far.



<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">Swiss Tony said on Fri, 21 October at around Lunchtime</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
Purchasing speakers is a lot like making love to a bueatiful woman; you can spending years working on them trying to get it just right before you settle down to appreciate the effect of the effort you've put in just without knowing what the result will be or you can go to a shop, look at the final product hand your money over and get instant gratification!




Swiss Tony talks **** in light of the above :)~:-)~:smile:

[Squirrelecto]

Folks are whining about how much time it will take but they think nothing of spending a good few hours per week on the forum. Some member virtually live here like SG. Like I said before that time you spend on here is just the same as me disappearing in the shed for an hour or two in the evening.


Excuse me, but I am mainly doing other things while I'm on here. Namely working for a living!



I don't believe it's possible to view a forum and be in the shed manufacturing speakers at the same time!



I have no interest in making speakers anyway. Not only would I be bored before I'd even started, but I am absolutely hopeless at DIY!



Sadly our time is not infinite, so I'd rather cough up and spend my time doing other things which I enjoy.



You enjoy DIY so good luck to you, that's what floats your boat. Don't assume that it's what is gonna float everyone else's boat!

[SYNTHesis]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">SYNTHesis wrote on Fri, 21 October 2005 15:29</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
Folks are whining about how much time it will take but they think nothing of spending a good few hours per week on the forum. Some member virtually live here like SG. Like I said before that time you spend on here is just the same as me disappearing in the shed for an hour or two in the evening.


Excuse me, but I am mainly doing other things while I'm on here. Namely working for a living!



I don't believe it's possible to view a forum and be in the shed manufacturing speakers at the same time!



I have no interest in making speakers anyway. Not only would I be bored before I'd even started, but I am absolutely hopeless at DIY!



Sadly our time is not infinite, so I'd rather cough up and spend my time doing other things which I enjoy.



You enjoy DIY so good luck to you, that's what floats your boat. Don't assume that it's what is gonna float everyone else's boat!




What a spectacular dodge of the post above yours. I completely predicted this would happen in the same thread. Folks on here hate to admit they're wrong.



I assume you failed to address that because you don't have any real counter to it all? Sorry for the attitude SG but I'm fighting a one man battle here against all the forum regulars, most folks would have given in by this point, yet in spite of coutering every negative, folks bring up the same points expecting me to re-iterate what I've already said. Its like going round in circles.

[SYNTHesis]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">SYNTHesis wrote on Fri, 21 October 2005 15:29</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
Folks are whining about how much time it will take but they think nothing of spending a good few hours per week on the forum. Some member virtually live here like SG. Like I said before that time you spend on here is just the same as me disappearing in the shed for an hour or two in the evening.




Excuse me, but I am mainly doing other things while I'm on here. Namely working for a living!




I bet you work in IT :lol:



If so, you like me, get to abuse your position by posting on forums because your job is dull and boring.



<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">Quote:</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
I don't believe it's possible to view a forum and be in the shed manufacturing speakers at the same time!




PPC with wireless net access is what I use :lol:



<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">Quote:</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
I have no interest in making speakers anyway. Not only would I be bored before I'd even started, but I am absolutely hopeless at DIY!




No excuse, everyone has based their entire argument against DIY because they can't be arsed or because they don't have the skills etc. I've shown that you can still make huge savings with those completely and fully built kits all you need to do is connect the speaker wire - or is that too much now?



<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">Quote:</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
You enjoy DIY so good luck to you, that's what floats your boat. Don't assume that it's what is gonna float everyone else's boat!




Agreed but I'm not trying to get everyone to move over to DIY and I'm trying to make them realise that commercial stuff suck for the money paid. I really can't see the problem when you look at the ready made kits from Wilmslow Audio.

[martintyler]

while you are making your speakers and i am on the forum (since you like to compare those two activities) and i am either at work, or listening to my speakers at home anyway. So once again, your comparisons are completely invalid. Even those that arent listening to their speakers at the same time probably arent spending as long in a single session as you would have to (i would guess anyway) doing a DIY project.. you cant just dive into the shed (which i dont have anyway) for 5 minutes like you can the forum. Also i would guess you spend a fair amount of time on your DIY forums right?



You mentioned you can get everything done for you if you are lazy... well done, you have finally seen the light, that is what the rest of us call 'buying speakers' not DIY :)~:-)~:smile:



As a superficial aesthetic point only, i think most of the speakers you have shown are damn ugly. Your own ones look impressive and nicely finished, but i really dont like the style at all. Are there any DIY speakers at the same quality finish/looks etc as, for example, an Aurum Cantus, that you could easily get someone to knock up for a 'lazy ass' person?

[baileych]

What a spectacular dodge of the post above yours. I completely predicted this would happen in the same thread. Folks on here hate to admit they're wrong.



I assume you failed to address that because you don't have any real counter to it all? Sorry for the attitude SG but I'm fighting a one man battle here against all the forum regulars, most folks would have given in by this point, yet in spite of coutering every negative, folks bring up the same points expecting me to re-iterate what I've already said. Its like going round in circles.




Can I ask a really simple question. What is the point which you are trying to prove? What it your one man battle for?



I don't think anybody is denying that you enjoy your DIY and that your happy spending your time doing that. I presume you're not trying to convince everyone to build there own speakers, that would be futile as - as you have discovered - few people are prepared to spend the time and money to do this.

[martintyler]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">Quote:</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
You enjoy DIY so good luck to you, that's what floats your boat. Don't assume that it's what is gonna float everyone else's boat!




Agreed but I'm not trying to get everyone to move over to DIY and I'm trying to make them realise that commercial stuff suck for the money paid. I really can't see the problem when you look at the ready made kits from Wilmslow Audio.




How is that DIY? That is a commercial speaker which, if you are right, is very good value and performs well. If you look at all the other commercial speakers you will find differences in value and performance too.

[SYNTHesis]

while you are making your speakers and i am on the forum (since you like to compare those two activities) and i am either at work, or listening to my speakers at home anyway. So once again, your comparisons are completely invalid. Even those that arent listening to their speakers at the same time probably arent spending as long in a single session as you would have to (i would guess anyway) doing a DIY project.. you cant just dive into the shed (which i dont have anyway) for 5 minutes like you can the forum. Also i would guess you spend a fair amount of time on your DIY forums right?



You mentioned you can get everything done for you if you are lazy... well done, you have finally seen the light, that is what the rest of us call 'buying speakers' not DIY :)~:-)~:smile:



As a superficial aesthetic point only, i think most of the speakers you have shown are damn ugly. Your own ones look impressive and nicely finished, but i really dont like the style at all. Are there any DIY speakers at the same quality finish/looks etc as, for example, an Aurum Cantus, that you could easily get someone to knock up for a 'lazy ass' person?




I bet you only buy commercial for the brand names too :lol: - joke BTW



Looks aren't everything and despite the fact that you don't like the styling of my design, that's cool too. There was more to that design than pure aesthetics, the shapes play a very important sound in minimizing resonances and standing waves. That's probably why they look so strange because they have no parrallel walls(standing wave control), subdivided panels to create smaller subpanels(resonance control), matrix bracing(resonance control), and 4&quot; baffles + 1.5&quot; walls(resonance control).

I went with function over form here. Take a look at the cabinets they use in the speakers you have sat in your room.



By the AC's you mean something rectangular with a black gloss spray job and maybe some veneering? Yes you can specify that.



There's more kits than just the ones I've shown BTW:

https://secure.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/acatalog/Wilmslow_Audio_ (https://secure.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/acatalog/Wilmslow_Audio_Wilmslow_Loudspeaker_Systems_1.html ) Wilmslow_Loudspeaker_Systems_1.html



I'm not going to take this off topic by debating aesthetics and hunting around showing off lots of different designs to try and appease the fact you don't like the looks.



If you really want to see ugly but in the same breath want to be impressed from a technical view point and sheer admiration for the skills involved, look no further(can you say B&amp;W Nautilus?):



http://www.pcpaudio.com/pcpfiles/proyectos_altavoces/Odisea1 (http://www.pcpaudio.com/pcpfiles/proyectos_altavoces/Odisea1/Odisea1.html) /Odisea1.html

[Squirrelecto]

What a spectacular dodge of the post above yours. I completely predicted this would happen in the same thread. Folks on here hate to admit they're wrong.



I assume you failed to address that because you don't have any real counter to it all? Sorry for the attitude SG but I'm fighting a one man battle here against all the forum regulars, most folks would have given in by this point, yet in spite of coutering every negative, folks bring up the same points expecting me to re-iterate what I've already said. Its like going round in circles.




I don't know what you're up in arms about now, but I took exception to you suggesting I should stop visiting the forum and go and build speakers instead so that's what I responded to. I don't care about the rest of the points you are making.




I bet you work in IT :lol:



If so, you like me, get to abuse your position by posting on forums because your job is dull and boring.




There you go again! Keep making your assumptions about me and how interesting or otherwise my job might be! :roll:



Not that it is any of your business, but I am an IT bod of sorts, although nothing approaching what you are thinking of. Some of us have worked hard to be in a job that gives us lots of flexibility about how we work. Much of my job involves writing, so it's no big deal to have AV Talk running in the background while I do so.






No excuse, everyone has based their entire argument against DIY because they can't be arsed or because they don't have the skills etc. I've shown that you can still make huge savings with those completely and fully built kits all you need to do is connect the speaker wire - or is that too much now?


So we've gone from DIY to just buying ready assembled speakers, as you would from any manufacturer! :lol: I don't doubt that you can make huge savings, but I really don't care about that. I like buying into a brand, branded speakers are easier to sell afterwards when it comes to upgrading, I like the support that I get from a dealer with branded speakers, I like the fact that many others are likely to own the same speakers and we can talk about them, I like the fact that people ask me what speakers I have and I can say &quot;PMC&quot; as opposed to &quot;some DIY jobbies I ordered off the net&quot;, I like the fact that commercial speakers are a professional product, I like the professional R&amp;D that's gone into the product, etc etc. Nothing is going to change my mind about that, in the same way that you will not be able to persuade me to eat aubergines by telling me how good they are for me - I don't like them!






Agreed but I'm not trying to get everyone to move over to DIY and I'm trying to make them realise that commercial stuff suck for the money paid. I really can't see the problem when you look at the ready made kits from Wilmslow Audio.


If you're not trying to get everyone to move over to DIY then I'd hate to see what you are like when you ARE trying! :lol:

[SYNTHesis]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">SYNTHesis wrote on Fri, 21 October 2005 15:54</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">


<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">Quote:</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
You enjoy DIY so good luck to you, that's what floats your boat. Don't assume that it's what is gonna float everyone else's boat!




Agreed but I'm not trying to get everyone to move over to DIY and I'm trying to make them realise that commercial stuff suck for the money paid. I really can't see the problem when you look at the ready made kits from Wilmslow Audio.




How is that DIY? That is a commercial speaker which, if you are right, is very good value and performs well. If you look at all the other commercial speakers you will find differences in value and performance too.






Its not DIY in the strict sense that you built it with your own hands. That is a certainty.



But the fact that its a DIY kit that you can also have fully built suggests its a DIY design and that was my point.



I'd very much love to hear of a commercial design that could beat them at £5k let alone £2.5k. In my mind they were very impressive for the money and yes, like some of you, I've been to Bristol in past years to be swooned by all the . As have I abused my consumer right by going to my local hifi stores such as Moorgate Acoustics, Superfi and Sevenoaks in Sheffield. Some of the more costly ones I've heard were Wilson ARC's &amp; ACT's alongwith B&amp;W 803D non had the magic those had for £2.5k.



I've been down to Wilmslow Audio with friends awhile ago to demo their range toppers.



Here's the original thread: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&amp;threadi (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&amp;threadid=65263&amp;highlight=) d=65263&amp;highlight=



And a summary of my thoughts:

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">Quote:</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
A couple of weeks ago I went down to Wilmslow Audio and audition a few of their best designs. I thought I'd share my thoughts here.



Centurion:



3-way all Scanspeak system with sliced paper cones and ring radiator.



This was quite a performer for the money (just under £2000 with flat pack cabinets) or around £2400 for fully finished veneered cabinets.



The most surprising thing was the amount of bass from just a couple of 6.5&quot; drivers. Mega clarity and detail, yet smooth. Imaging was spot on also.



Forte 2:



3-way with Scan 10&quot; bass, ATC mid dome, Seas Crescendo treble.



This one was a couple of steps up above the Centurion IMO. Bass was a little wooly for my liking but that could have been the room. Midrange was really top notch and the crescendo mated well. A very easy speaker to listen to. I'd prefer a little more top end sparkle but I suspect it was the voicing of the XO that wasn't quite to my tastes. A very britsh sounding speaker - smooth, controlled and detailed.



Prestige 2:



3-way with 12&quot; Volt Radial, ATC mid dome and Scan 2905-9900 treble.



This was easily the best out of the above. A great speaker. I love the sound of the Volt drivers and the Radial is very punchy and quick sounding, you always felt that it was in control even when pushed hard. ATC sounded superb once again, I love this driver and if it wasn't for the price I'd don't see why there'd be any other mids on the market.

If there was a weak point I'd say it was the treble, there just wasn't enough of that air or magic that I normally like. Personally I'm almost sure its the way the systems are voiced. A bit like the tweeters could all use another 1 or 2dB's boost to bring them in line with the other drivers - this is that british sort of sound I was talking about.



All in all it was a good trip and I got to assess my project in terms of the Forte and Prestige designs since I also use the ATC mid dome. A direct comparison is probably unfair because I've voiced my system to my tastes and the way Wilmslow voice their system is more akin to hifi rather than the studio type of sound I prefer.

So its clear that those designs had a distinct disadvantage already. So I prefer my take on things.



For anyone looking to buy a ready to build design I'd recommend any of the above, especially the Prestige 2. Wilmslow is also a bit of an aladdins cave. Its old fashioned inside but every corner is filled with stuff that makes a DIY'er feel like a kid in a candy store.



Any questions please feel free to ask.

[SYNTHesis]

There you go again! Keep making your assumptions about me and how interesting or otherwise my job might be! :roll:




It was actually a p*** take out of myself regarding an unfulfilling and sometimes stressful job.



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Not that it is any of your business, but I am an IT bod of sorts, although nothing approaching what you are thinking of. Some of us have worked hard to be in a job that gives us lots of flexibility about how we work. Much of my job involves writing, so it's no big deal to have AV Talk running in the background while I do so.




Programmer? Maybe on the Networking side of things. If so we have more in common than you think.



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So we've gone from DIY to just buying ready assembled speakers, as you would from any manufacturer! :lol:




I posted this a couple of posts back:



Its not DIY in the strict sense that you built it with your own hands. That is a certainty.



But the fact that its a DIY kit that you can also have fully built suggests its a DIY design and that was my point.



Because of the fact its a DIY design means that you get much better performance for your money. You didn't build it but the design is DIY all the same.



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I don't doubt that you can make huge savings, but I really don't care about that




Well, I was going to call you daft but you already did that.



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I like buying into a brand, branded speakers are easier to sell afterwards when it comes to upgrading




That is certainly true when your dealing with the brand led folks. Demo them and things become very obviously different. But the point is taken.



Go with one of those designs though and I'd doubt you would be upgrading to anything commercial, unless you had a £5k+ budget. The only way up for sensible money would be another DIY job. It spoils you, you see.



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I like the support that I get from a dealer with branded speakers




Full warranty provided with those built ones my friend. I'd hazzard a guess that Wilmslow offer better service than the vast majority of manufacturers too. I've had my problems and they have been superb in replacements and advice.



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I like the fact that many others are likely to own the same speakers and we can talk about them




So one of the reasons you buy speakers is so you've got something in common with others? I thought this forum was about stimulating conversation rather than slapping each others backs?



What about value for money and the performance offered? I guess that's down on your list of priorities.



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I like the fact that people ask me what speakers I have and I can say &quot;PMC&quot; as opposed to &quot;some DIY jobbies I ordered off the net&quot;




:lol:



Talk about ego. Who cares what others think? Its the sound that matters.



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I like the fact that commercial speakers are a professional product. I like the professional R&amp;D that's gone into the product




Why all the blind faith? I've seen the efforts that Wilmslow go to and I've put similar effort into my own work. I've seen a load of marketing literature from the big boys but they hardly extend a factory tour to each and every buyer should they wish. Most of what they do is the usual voodoo. I know exactly what I'm getting and its so much better at the price its laughable. Go ahead and buy because one of your criteria is a supposed proffesional R&amp;D that yields a product that sounds worse £ for £. :lol:



What your really saying is commercial company = almost foolproof design when in reality the folks at Wilmslow have been doing it for years and with passion and not just an underlying need for profit. They're a small company with no huge advertising budgets, no insiders in the press etc. Don't you think that gives them all the more reason to produce exceptional products rather than merely good compared to what is available in the market? Much of their business is entirely word of mouth, it the products and service weren't upto scratch they wouldn't have been doing it for 30 years now.



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Nothing is going to change my mind about that, in the same way that you will not be able to persuade me to eat aubergines by telling me how good they are for me - I don't like them!




Your loss, keep p1ssing those ££££'s down the corporate ladders looking for your high performance speaker when the answer is already in front of you. Or do you simply not want a top end speaker but rather something safe and fits in with established ideals? If so then fair enough, the points you've made though to highlight benefits of commercial over DIY have all been countered and its pure speculation from something your taking stabs in the dark at by the sounds of it.

[Squirrelecto]

Programmer? Maybe on the Networking side of things. If so we have more in common than you think.


Not even close!




So one of the reasons you buy speakers is so you've got something in common with others? I thought this forum was about stimulating conversation rather than slapping each others backs?


It is about discussion. Not about slapping each other's backs at all. I can PM Godfather, for example, and ask, how have you got yours setup? What do you think of them with music? I can speak to all sorts of people, in the real world and on the net, about a commercial speaker and reviews are much easier to find. There's a larger and much more varied community out there.






What about value for money and the performance offered? I guess that's down on your list of priorities.


Now you're the one who sounds daft! Of course performance is important and that performance has to sit within a certain budget. I can get performance from commercial speakers too you know. I just don't care about making huge savings by compromising the other requirements that I stated.






Why all the blind faith? I've seen the efforts that Wilmslow go to and I've put similar effort into my own work. I've seen a load of marketing literature from the big boys but they hardly extend a factory tour to each and every buyer should they wish. Most of what they do is the usual voodoo. I know exactly what I'm getting and its so much better at the price its laughable. Go ahead and buy because one of your criteria is a supposed proffesional R&amp;D that yields a product that sounds worse £ for £. :lol:



What your really saying is commercial company = almost foolproof design when in reality the folks at Wilmslow have been doing it for years and with passion and not just an underlying need for profit. They're a small company with no huge advertising budgets, no insiders in the press etc. Don't you think that gives them all the more reason to produce exceptional products rather than merely good compared to what is available in the market? Much of their business is entirely word of mouth, it the products and service weren't upto scratch they wouldn't have been doing it for 30 years now.


I'm not going to dispute any of that, but my own belief is that the best acoustic researchers are likely to work for a 'big brand' or start their own brand. Ask yourself where you would like to work if you were a hot shot? I know what my answer would be ;)~;-)~:wink:






Your loss, keep p1ssing those ££££'s down the corporate ladders looking for your high performance speaker when the answer is already in front of you. Or do you simply not want a top end speaker but rather something safe and fits in with established ideals? If so then fair enough, the points you've made though to highlight benefits of commercial over DIY have all been countered and its pure speculation from something your taking stabs in the dark at by the sounds of it.




I want a speaker that meets ALL of my requirements and not all of YOUR requirements. And I found ones that do just that. From a rather lovely dealer too, who provides a level of service I couldn't get from anywhere else :D~:-D~:grin:

[Uncle Eric]

One day in the not too distant future SYNTHesis will take a look at this thread and cringe at the nonsense he's posted

[SYNTHesis]

Not even close!




Good for you.



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It is about discussion. Not about slapping each other's backs at all. I can PM Godfather, for example, and ask, how have you got yours setup? What do you think of them with music? I can speak to all sorts of people, in the real world and on the net, about a commercial speaker and reviews are much easier to find. There's a larger and much more varied community out there.




Your own opinions matter the most, its all entirely subjective. So whilst discussion about mutually owned products is great, it doesn't mean much aside from a conversation point of view.



Its always safer to be part of a crowd than have something somewhat different. Everyone in that larger group often feels boosted by the certainty of everyone else. Its kinda how the SVS thing works(yes don't go there, I know). Anyone who offers a better way often gets stamped on or ridiculed.



But looking at your comment more closely; If Godfather said he didn't like the treble but you thought it was great. Does that mean anything?



You've said you like value, I assume you like the best sounding speakers you can afford also. I can't see what the problem is. You've also said that you like to chat with others about how to setup a system etc.? Fair enough, it would be nice if I could chat with somebody who had a pair of the same speakers as me but I don't let that get in the way of getting the best sound possible. I can still chat with folks here about audio in general because its such a broad subject. What applies to one loudspeaker applies to many many others, its hardly as if Genelec owners have a completely different setup proceedure to either me or most other speakers for that matter. Another big plus of DIY is that you've got something unique also.



Your doing a disservice to commercial by only citing the strengths you've outlined so far:



Proffessional R&amp;D

Mutual interests between users

Brand name &amp; prestige

Service



I've already shown that Service and R&amp;D out of these are equalled or better within DIY.



What about actually arguing about the thing that I really want points of view about and that is commercial speaker value is poor.



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Now you're the one who sounds daft! Of course performance is important and that performance has to sit within a certain budget. I can get performance from commercial speakers too you know. I just don't care about making huge savings by compromising the other requirements that I stated.




So you paid £1.5k for your speakers let assume. The way your looking at it is I can get those same ones for £400 with DIY.



How about you spend £1.5k on the DIY and then compare them side by side with the commercials you own or were going to buy :lol:



Please, just answer me this: Where is sound quality on your list of requirements?



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I'm not going to dispute any of that, but my own belief is that the best acoustic researchers are likely to work for a 'big brand' or start their own brand. Ask yourself where you would like to work if you were a hot shot? I know what my answer would be ;)~;-)~:wink:




Again your faith is completely blind. You follow the commercial companies blindly without ever knowing the exact R&amp;D that goes into it all. You assume they have passionate individuals that only care about audio and not trying to get maximum profits out of cheap mass produced components. They play on folk's preconception by packing them in nicely finished cabinets. Its a shame the consumer has pushed it all down this avenue but commercial products prodominantly feature nice looks but underachieving sound for the price.



The fact is that just because you work in a commercial speaker manufacturers R&amp;D facility doesn't mean squat. Its the products that make the statements not the sales literature. And with that in mind £ for £ the Wilmslow stuff or any other good DIY designs completely destroy the commercial products.



Why do you keep pointing to all sorts of blind negatives, when the real thing that matters, the sound, is better £ for £ despite the fact that potentially 12 guys with PHD's designed your loudspeakers? Your point about the fantastic R&amp;D, is failing you because it doesn't produce speakers that sounds best £ for £.



Take a look at DIY scene, both past and present. Most of the big folks started out building speakers in their garage and got a commercial taste for it.



A few examples:



David Wilson of Wilson Audio



Billy Woodman of ATC



John Curl(freelancer) of Parasound JC1 &amp; others fame.



Nelson Pass of Passlabs (still very active in the DIY scene)



Sigfreid Linkwitz prominant publisher of technical papers and DIY designs such as Orion and Pheonix Dipole speakers.



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I want a speaker that meets ALL of my requirements and not all of YOUR requirements. And I found ones that do just that. From a rather lovely dealer too, who provides a level of service I couldn't get from anywhere else :D~:-D~:grin:




It seems all your requirements are it must be commercial, there must be other owners, they must have a proffessional R&amp;D etc. rather than anything that centers around sound quality at a given price. We are both talking about speakers here aren't we?



What would be even better would be actually having a friendly relationship with the folks that actually built and designed your speakers rather than just someone who sells them. Down to earth folks that actually understand a product completely and utterly. Whilst your dealer may offer some of that I doubt he knows how to swap out the treble unit and rebuild the XO because you fancy a change - I doubt you'd entertain this though because your in the commercial mindset ie. folks lossing ££££'s by swapping and changing endlessly. I was guilty of this when I bought commercial, wish I could turn back the clock and have all that money back in my pocket, knowing what I know now.



Is it fun trying out new kit, definitely.

[SYNTHesis]

One day in the not too distant future SYNTHesis will take a look at this thread and cringe at the nonsense he's posted




Well of course you think its nonsense.



Its showing the products you sell in a less than perfect light, I wouldn't expect anything else from you.



On the flip side I read all your comments about the sound and the larger than life reviews you post and think the same.



Seriously now:

So are we on for a showdown in the future then? Can you get the AC Supremes in for the test? How about I bring my Optoma H79 down so your CRT can slaughter it, that way you'll come out with something positive on the day :twisted: w)

[SYNTHesis]

I'm honoured that you've given me the 'oddjob' title in my profile.



I notice all the prominant folks on here have one so I feel more at home now.



BTW Were you thinking of Oddjob the badass from the bond movie Goldfinger?



Yours should probably read AV Talk Philanderer

[markb84]

SYNTHesis,



Firstly the point that you originally were trying to make is that a particular pair of speakers seemed like a lot of money for what you appear to get.

Given that there are a lot of speakers at this price point all of which have varying levels of performance and different tonal qualities there will always be different speakers that suit different ears, having worked in the industry for some time now in my experience people quite often buy products that may be insuperior to others that they audition in my opinion they purchase the speakers that suit them best, this could be for a variety of reasons including aesthics (which you claim are unimportant and if you have ever lived with a woman you will know this to be untrue!), performance, tonal qualities (of which different people have different preferences), after sales support/warranty (which DIY speakers dont have) and price point. All of these points considered people often go for a comprimise of some sort when buying speakers.



Secondly regarding the points you seem to be trying to make, no one has dissagreed with the fact that your speakers may well be technically superior than anything commercially available at the same price point however you continue to argue.

Why should the ready made DIY kits from wimslow audio be considered DIY any more than the elite commercial efforts, just because the companies don't ever sell them in kit form??

You accuse the majority of people on this forum of being narrow-minded however there are quite a few people including myself and Eric who work in this industry and not only is it our hobby but our career, therefore we put a lot of effort into carefully selecting brands that we deal with based upon years of experience, and I would never consider selling DIY speakers to my clients as firstly they are largely searching for aesthetically pleasing speakers and secondly it would be foolish to sell something which has no kind of warranty and no proven long term reliablity, plenty of people buy speakers and keep them for many years could you give any kind of long term guarantee of reliabilty to your DIY jobs??

[baileych]

I've already shown that Service and R&amp;D out of these are equalled or better within DIY.




There is a world of difference between &quot;claimed&quot; and &quot;shown&quot;.

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Again your faith is completely blind. You follow the commercial companies blindly without ever knowing the exact R&amp;D that goes into it all.






My faith is, fortunately, not deaf - although given the styling of my current speakers I'll let you have &quot;blind&quot;.



Does it matter what exactly goes into the R&amp;D? No company will reveal the full extend of their research, it's highly commerically sensitive. But you can listen to a variety of commerical speakers before spending any money (or time) and decide if what they have produced is good enough for you. If you like what you hear for the price you can get, then what's wrong with that? Conversely, I'm not suggesting that what you've done (tried, not found anything you liked, rolled your own) is any less of a reasonable approach.



I'm very interested, how did you choose the design of your speakers, enclosure shape and driver choice and positioning, etc.? It's not something I think I could ever attempt so I'm interested in how you went about it.



Charles.

[SYNTHesis]

SYNTHesis,



Firstly the point that you originally were trying to make is that a particular pair of speakers seemed like a lot of money for what you appear to get.

Given that there are a lot of speakers at this price point all of which have varying levels of performance and different tonal qualities there will always be different speakers that suit different ears, having worked in the industry for some time now in my experience people quite often buy products that may be insuperior to others that they audition in my opinion they purchase the speakers that suit them best, this could be for a variety of reasons including aesthics (which you claim are unimportant and if you have ever lived with a woman you will know this to be untrue!), performance, tonal qualities (of which different people have different preferences), after sales support/warranty (which DIY speakers dont have) and price point. All of these points considered people often go for a comprimise of some sort when buying speakers.



Secondly regarding the points you seem to be trying to make, no one has dissagreed with the fact that your speakers may well be technically superior than anything commercially available at the same price point however you continue to argue.

Why should the ready made DIY kits from wimslow audio be considered DIY any more than the elite commercial efforts, just because the companies don't ever sell them in kit form??

You accuse the majority of people on this forum of being narrow-minded however there are quite a few people including myself and Eric who work in this industry and not only is it our hobby but our career, therefore we put a lot of effort into carefully selecting brands that we deal with based upon years of experience, and I would never consider selling DIY speakers to my clients as firstly they are largely searching for aesthetically pleasing speakers and secondly it would be foolish to sell something which has no kind of warranty and no proven long term reliablity, plenty of people buy speakers and keep them for many years could you give any kind of long term guarantee of reliabilty to your DIY jobs??




But you get the guarantee and service with those Wilmslow readybuilt DIY models as I've said a few time before.



Your right though about DIY efforts such as mine, if I blow them up tommorow I don't have a leg to stand on. I do however have 3 and 5 year warranties on the drivers to cover defects rather than abuse.



TBH Speakers are almost foolproof. Providing you care for them that is. Mechanical faults in loudspeakers are virtually non existant the only time they get damaged is from the abuse really. Like I said above I'm covered for defects.



If you burn the coils out on your commercials then the manufacturer will turn round and say neglect, here's the bill for the new driver. And again, if you drop them, they'll turn around and say better pay for the repairs or a new cabinet. All this is offered by Wilmslow with their kits.



BTW: How many folks have had a passive speaker go faulty that wasn't through abuse or accidental damage???



Its a sad state of affairs when consumers push the market into an aesthetically driven/brandname scenario. I really like the studio stuff because it sounds great for the money, the looks are ugly though but I still see a load of Genelec, M&amp;K and Mackie owners on here.



I guess that why the really passionate folks like myself turn to DIY because commercial just doesn't offer what we need at the budgets we have. I also understand that at any particular price point there's varying degree's of performance both with DIY and commercial. The point was that the best from each camp at the price point would show DIY in a much more favourable light.



To put it into perspective though, if I had a couple of million in the coffers I'd still DIY. Why? Because I care more about the sound than the warranties, service and what others think. Although don't think for a minute I'd build the cabinets myself! I'd pay a well trained cabinet maker for that. But the core fundamentals I'd do myself because that's the best part, the construction is a chore at times but a neccessary evil.



Your in the position of selling commercial stuff so for someone to say the commercial sucks, must be harsh. I hate to say it but its possibly a case of commitements and estabilished thinking, different opinions often illicit a defensive stance in light of this.



Fact is I'm nowhere near articulate enough to get the point across about DIY. I'm only one person, I've undoubtbly rubbed a few folks up the wrong way too because of my personality and enthusiasm. Its always going to be the way. So many folks have already dismissed based upon the fact the don't like the guy pushing it.



I think I've said all I can really on the subject and without other people to help out get the point across and perhaps get that point across in a better way then its likely we'll continue to go round in circles.



What's clear though is there's only 1 voice for DIY and 100's maybe 1000's for commercial. You buy a magazine and all you see is commercial, you read reviews and all you see is commercial. All those numbers alone tells folks that DIY is inferior and you get the preconcieved notions. Yet the story is different. Its about realising what out there and what you can actually get for your money.



Its a consumer society we live in and we have brands pushed in our faces all the time. A lot of effort is put into mystifying speakers by the manufacturers, with large claims, best case scenarios, inaccurate specs and marketing voodoo used to impress and baffle. They then appeal to our eye by wrapping the whole thing up in something so irrestible that we can't fail to be impressed from the start. We like them before we even hear them!



The truth of all this though is that despite all those bold claims, seemingly extravagant technologies and shiny eye candy is just a speaker and DIY strips all that BS and gives you the fundamentals with far better performance per pound. Don't like the looks then tell Wilmslow to spray them or pick a different veneer.

[SYNTHesis]

I'm very interested, how did you choose the design of your speakers, enclosure shape and driver choice and positioning, etc.? It's not something I think I could ever attempt so I'm interested in how you went about it.



Charles.






I start off with a list of things I'd like them to do, for example:



-How low do they have to extend?



-What sort of max SPL will they have to achieve whilst maintaining low distortion and avoiding compression along with other audio nasties.



-Are they for HT, music or both?



-Do they have to be neutral or do you like speakers voiced in a particular way ie. some like a lifted treble response or maybe a boost in the bass.



Once you've set out all those goals, you've then got to look at exactly what achievable with a particular design. So you start modelling up some rough maybe's. Could be 2-way with a sub or maybe a 2.5way, 3-way, fullrange etc.



Then you need to make a selection of drivers that you could use. For me I wanted close to what is the best available , so I went entirely on opinions of others who'd used them previously because its very expensive to round up what's consider the best for a pick and mix session. This in turn led me to select the ATC dome midrange, Scanspeak Ring Radiator and because I had problems with the bass drivers and I went through a few here.



This is where you turn to modelling software like lspCAD and SpeakerWorkshop. What you do here is enter the manufacturer T/S parameters and these T/S paramter are the blueprints of how the driver will perform if you like. They merely enable a numerical way of documenting the performance and attributes of a driver ready to be entered into modelling software to give the user a visual representation of the modelled data. What it is just a rough serious of graphs that relate to potential performance and also highlight problem areas.



After the data has been entered into your chosen modelling software you can see roughly what to expect and how the drivers interact with each other. What this doesn't tell you is what it will sound like.



The next step is to buy the drivers you've chosen. Then you have to measure them to get the actual T/S parameters since they always deviate slightly from the manufacturers specs, this allows us to build up the most accurate picture rather than relying on manufacturers average specs. The way you 'measure' a driver is done by a PC and suitable software. Its the measured by both a microphone for the sound properties and by physically connecting the speaker to the measurement software by wiring it into the system ready to measure the electrical properties.



After this is done you move all that captured data back into the modelling software and compare the original design with manufacturers TS compared to the actual values of the drivers you now have and plan to use. Once done you can make any small adjustments to things like box volumes and loading (sealed, ported, dipole, transmission line, horn loaded).



What you have at this point is a rough but indicative guide. Now you need to go into more detail.



Here's where I model the shape of the baffles in order to minimise a property called diffraction and baffle step. Simply but the baffle is the face of the speaker where the drivers reside. It actually has its own sonic signature depending upon mass, shape, size and driver positions. Using a clever piece of software called 'the edge' we can model and predict just how different baffle shapes and sizes along with driver positions can effect the frequency response of the speaker and also cut the amount of sound the baffle transmits to a minimum. This is crucial for a low distortion loudspeaker and I spent a lot of time modelling baffles with the aim to virtually illiminate any colouration introduced via the baffle. In essence all we want to hear is the drivers themselves and not have the enclosure contributing to the overall sound.



I ended up with this:



http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-7/1050288/sat3.JPG



Its a 4&quot; thick construction with carefully calculated angular cutouts. The large mass enables the resonant frequency of the baffle to be lowered below the operating range of the mid range and treble drivers.



Its aim was to minimise the baffle area, store and dissipate driver energy within the mass of the baffle and the angular sections on the side and top help radiate what little sound leaves the baffle away from the direct soundfield of the drivers so as not to interfere with the overall clarity.



Am I boring you yet? :lol:



If not I can carry on but I could write a few pages of posts on this facinating subject.

[baileych]

Am I boring you yet? :lol:






No, how much do these modelling software packages cost, and how good are they?



Charles.

[SYNTHesis]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">SYNTHesis wrote on Fri, 21 October 2005 21:19</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">


Am I boring you yet? :lol:






No, how much do these modelling software packages cost, and how good are they?



Charles.




As always, the skys the limit depending on your budget.



But the ones I use are:



lspCAD 6.0 (810Euros): http://www.ijdata.com/



This is a great piece of software and quite user friendly once you get to understand the basics of what makes a loudspeaker tick. Has limited abilities to measure drivers and completed speakers, really its a tool for modelling and crossover design first and formost.



---------------------------------------------



SpeakerWorkshop (Free) : http://www.audua.com/



Possibly the worlds most awkward program to use but the power once its been correctly setup and calibrated is quite breathtaking. Its main strengths for me is measuring drivers and loudspeakers. It offers measurements such as gated far and nearfield response, phase, group delay, distortion, dispertion, amplitude, time/energy plots and all the rest of the essentials for designing an accurate speaker.



---------------------------------------------



SIA Smaart Acoustic Tools ($600) : http://www.siasoft.com/products/at_screenshots.html



Used for measuring and analysing room acoustics. Things like reverb, reflections and decay time RT60 can be done here. This isn't essential for designing a speaker at all but I use it in conjuntion with Digital Room Compensation to help remove some of the distortions caused by the room.



---------------------------------------------



The Edge (Free) : http://www.tolvan.com/edge/help.htm



Used for modelling the baffle shapes of the enclosures.



---------------------------------------------



TrueRTA (free for the demo or $99 for the full) : http://www.trueaudio.com/rta_abt1.htm



A quick and easy tool for measuring sensitivity and amplitude response for drivers. Limited in scope but good to access in a quick manner. Speakerworkshop is used for the detailed measurements.



---------------------------------------------



These aren't the only ones nor are they the best that's available, there's also more user friendly ones too. Its just what I've found reliable and learned to use during the years I've been doing this.



Also don't be put off by the prices, I'm an IT guy so I got them for far less ;)~;-)~:wink:

[Uncle Eric]

Well of course you think its nonsense.



Its showing the products you sell in a less than perfect light..




Oh really. Why? Because *you* say so? Your logic is laughable mate it really is. Who are you again? :lol: :lol:






On the flip side I read all your comments about the sound and the larger than life reviews you post and think the same.




Spin it how you want. Doesn't matter what one person thinks. What counts is the opinion of the thousands of folks that have seen, heard and bought these 'commercial' products over the years not to mention the highly positive opinions of some of the most well regarded industry professionals in the world.



Have you seen anyone else apart from you screaming foul? Nope! Face it Synth, your input has about as much worth as monopoly money :)~:-)~:smile:



By the way that's not because you lack woodworking skills which I'm sure are up to scratch now probably due to a skip load of MDF practice runs. It's more to do with your dishonesty. In my book, anyone who makes a judgement about something and jumps around screaming blue murder as much as you do without seeing/hearing 'the competition' is not only being dishonest with anyone who happens to read his nonsense but is also being dishonest with himself.








Seriously now:

So are we on for a showdown in the future then? Can you get the AC Supremes in for the test? How about I bring my Optoma H79 down so your CRT can slaughter it, that way you'll come out with something positive on the day


Obviously you have the observance skills of a slate tile.

I own Aurum Cantus Harmonys (you might know them, they're the speakers folks have been buying and praising all over the world).



I also don't own a CRT. That's long gone. I have a Projection design DC3 DLP.



As for waisting my time with you. I'm happy to do so but it has to be on at least a 100 to 1 ratio as your time is worthless unlike mine. In other words, as mentioned before, feel free to bring over whatever you want. I'm here in London waiting for you. Remember to bring that £10 note you promised to send for Charity but never did. Why am I not surprised




I'm honoured that you've given me the 'oddjob' title in my profile. I notice all the prominant folks on here have one so I feel more at home now.


You are certainly prominent in the most negative way possible. Keep it up as you are entertaining the hell out of us.






BTW Were you thinking of Oddjob the badass from the bond movie Goldfinger?


Nope, nothing that glamorous I'm afraid. I was thinking more along the lines of Andy Capp and his potting shed :)~:-)~:smile:








Yours should probably read AV Talk Philanderer


Nope! That title is best suited to the pair running AVF who by the way would have deleted your nonsensical posts along with your membership long ago.



Why is it people like you seem to grow balls over here yet when they post over there they resemble David Carradine as Grasshopper walking on rice paper?



Could it be that you are taking advantage of our honest policies of non deletion (of both posts and memberships)? By all means do so but at least make sense. All you've proved so far is that you have a large chip on your shoulder and that your time is worth nothing.



You've spent hours hammering away at the keyboard in an effort to convince us that you can make better speakers than just about any speaker manufacturer on the planet you. There are also several people residing in mental institutions all over the world who claim they are Napoleon Bonaparte. If they believe that, fine. You believe what you want to believe and let us ignorant ones live with our Wilsons, AC's PMC's etc etc.



Talk is cheap my friend, almost as cheap as your time!

[SYNTHesis]

Carrying on from my last post about how I go about designing a speaker:



After I've done a suitable baffle design for my chosen drivers, I then turn my attentions to the cabinets.



The treble and midrange were easy here because they are closed back designs. Meaning they have no rear wave radiation unlike cone speakers which radiate sound to the front(listening area) and rear(into the cabinets). So I focused all my efforts on the baffle and then still built a cabinet as if they had a rear wave:



One thing that's great in audio is irregular shapes, uniform and parallel edges and surfaces cause sanding waves to form much like your room does with a subwoofer. So I chose to go with walls that had no parallels and the internal surfaces subdivided by a series of braces forming a matrix. The aim was to minimise these standing waves and reduce resonances.



The bass cabinets are built using the same principles as the treble and midrange cabinet but with a more-so approach since bass frequencies carry more energy.



After they are roughly finished, I start to listen and tweak my theoretically correct crossover by ear. Then go back measure all the major stuff like phase, group delay, amplitude and all the others to see if I'm moving in the right direction. This part usual takes the longest compared to construction! I've spent 100's of hours tweaking and playing.



I did however have problems with my choice of bass drivers and in the end had to swap and change 3 times before I was completely happy. The really interesting thing is I had a technically perfect speaker from all my measurement and graphs yet my ears told me otherwise.



The problem I believe was down to the fact that I was mating different driver materials meaning the ATC was a critically damped fabric dome which was crossed over to a hard, stiff and light material such as aluminium of the Seas L22 in the first case and the second case was magnesium for the Seas Excel drivers. I finally found aural nirvana with an ATC treated paper cone.



So thats a very rough and quick explanation of the process with some bits being left out but you get the idea.

[Bomb_Squad]

Where's that <font size="7"><font color="red">£10</font></font> mate?

[SYNTHesis]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">SYNTHesis wrote on Fri, 21 October 2005 18:39</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">




Well of course you think its nonsense.



Its showing the products you sell in a less than perfect light..




Oh really. Why? Because *you* say so? Your logic is laughable mate it really is. Who are you again? :lol: :lol:






On the flip side I read all your comments about the sound and the larger than life reviews you post and think the same.




Spin it how you want. Doesn't matter what one person thinks. What counts is the opinion of the thousands of folks that have seen, heard and bought these 'commercial' products over the years not to mention the highly positive opinions of some of the most well regarded industry professionals in the world.



Have you seen anyone else apart from you screaming foul? Nope! Face it Synth, your input has about as much worth as monopoly money :)~:-)~:smile:



By the way that's not because you lack woodworking skills which I'm sure are up to scratch now probably due to a skip load of MDF practice runs. It's more to do with your dishonesty. In my book, anyone who makes a judgement about something and jumps around screaming blue murder as much as you do without seeing/hearing 'the competition' is not only being dishonest with anyone who happens to read his nonsense but is also being dishonest with himself.








Seriously now:

So are we on for a showdown in the future then? Can you get the AC Supremes in for the test? How about I bring my Optoma H79 down so your CRT can slaughter it, that way you'll come out with something positive on the day


Obviously you have the observance skills of a slate tile.

I own Aurum Cantus Harmonys (you might know them, they're the speakers folks have been buying and praising all over the world).



I also don't own a CRT. That's long gone. I have a Projection design DC3 DLP.



As for waisting my time with you. I'm happy to do so but it has to be on at least a 100 to 1 ratio as your time is worthless unlike mine. In other words, as mentioned before, feel free to bring over whatever you want. I'm here in London waiting for you. Remember to bring that £10 note you promised to send for Charity but never did. Why am I not surprised




I'm honoured that you've given me the 'oddjob' title in my profile. I notice all the prominant folks on here have one so I feel more at home now.


You are certainly prominent in the most negative way possible. Keep it up as you are entertaining the hell out of us.






BTW Were you thinking of Oddjob the badass from the bond movie Goldfinger?


Nope, nothing that glamorous I'm afraid. I was thinking more along the lines of Andy Capp and his potting shed :)~:-)~:smile:








Yours should probably read AV Talk Philanderer


Nope! That title is best suited to the pair running AVF who by the way would have deleted your nonsensical posts along with your membership long ago.



Why is it people like you seem to grow balls over here yet when they post over there they resemble David Carradine as Grasshopper walking on rice paper?



Could it be that you are taking advantage of our honest policies of non deletion (of both posts and memberships)? By all means do so but at least make sense. All you've proved so far is that you have a large chip on your shoulder and that your time is worth nothing.



You've spent hours hammering away at the keyboard in an effort to convince us that you can make better speakers than just about any speaker manufacturer on the planet you. There are also several people residing in mental institutions all over the world who claim they are Napoleon Bonaparte. If they believe that, fine. You believe what you want to believe and let us ignorant ones live with our Wilsons, AC's PMC's etc etc.



Talk is cheap my friend, almost as cheap as your time!






:lol:



I thought we were talking about loudspeakers rather than Eric's ego vs. mine.



Hope you feel better now you've taken the p1ss out of me. Strangly I do for reason that will probably elude you.

[Bomb_Squad]

I found this on your &quot;Bomb Funk&quot; thread







http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=getfile&amp;id=5106

[SYNTHesis]

I found this on your &quot;Bomb Funk&quot; thread







http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=getfile&amp;id=5106






:lol:



<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">Quote:</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
I've undoubtbly rubbed a few folks up the wrong way too because of my personality and enthusiasm. Its always going to be the way. So many folks have already dismissed DIY based upon the fact the don't like the guy pushing it.

[Uncle Eric]

I found this on your &quot;Bomb Funk&quot; thread







http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=getfile&amp;id=5106




Bloody thing has mushrooms on it :lol: :lol: :lol:

[adox]

Where's that <font size="7"><font color="red">£10</font></font> mate?










Obviously speakers arent the only way he tries to save money :o~:-o~:eek:

[SYNTHesis]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">Bomb_Squad wrote on Fri, 21 October 2005 22:33</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
I found this on your &quot;Bomb Funk&quot; thread







http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=getfile&amp;id=5106




Bloody thing has mushrooms on it :lol: :lol: :lol:






Its amazing that all you've actually contributed to this thread is character attacks, school yard banter and a clear agenda. Nothing actually related to the subject in hand.



The only posts I see you make with real substance are the ones talking about stuff you either sell, are going to sell or have sold.



What if we started another thread with me being less enthusiastic and more objective? If I was slightly bad mouthing anything you sell I'd still have been beaten down.

[Bomb_Squad]

Surely this fella could knock up a tenner!



Look - i've just done one



http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=getfile&amp;id=5107

[SYNTHesis]

Surely this fella could knock up a tenner!



Look - i've just done one



http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=getfile&amp;id=5107








Like Eric said, talk is indeed cheap.

[SYNTHesis]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">Bomb_Squad wrote on Fri, 21 October 2005 22:31</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
Where's that <font size="7"><font color="red">£10</font></font> mate?










Obviously speakers arent the only way he tries to save money :o~:-o~:eek:




It must be great to have that pack mentality.



I've seen a few interesting discussion on here and Eric talks about his openness and honesty etc. but the fact is the regulars come down hard on anyone who might offer up a controversial subject.



Instead of actually debating the points, things turn to character slurring and petty comments that belong in a 10 year olds mouth.



Its always a great place when your part of that pack. Perhaps I should start wowing at everything Eric posts or owns.



Ralf Waldo Emmerson wrote:

A foolish consistancy is the hobgoblin of little minds.

[adox]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">adox wrote on Fri, 21 October 2005 22:48</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">Bomb_Squad wrote on Fri, 21 October 2005 22:31</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
Where's that <font size="7"><font color="red">£10</font></font> mate?










Obviously speakers arent the only way he tries to save money :o~:-o~:eek:




It must be great to have that pack mentality.



I've seen a few interesting discussion on here and Eric talks about his openness and honesty etc. but the fact is the regulars come down hard on anyone who might offer up a controversial subject.



Instead of actually debating the points, things turn to character slurring and petty comments that belong in a 10 year olds mouth.



Its always a great place when your part of that pack. Perhaps I should start wowing at everything Eric posts or owns.



Ralf Waldo Emmerson wrote:

A foolish consistancy is the hobgoblin of little minds.








Thats all well and good mate,but WHERE IS THE TENNER???????

[SYNTHesis]

[quote title=SYNTHesis wrote on Fri, 21 October 2005 22:57][quote=adox]








Thats all well and good mate,but WHERE IS THE TENNER???????




*****************************

Now that's getting personal! [waits for ban]



Nasty personal remark edited by Eric. You need to chill out Synth!

[Jimmy]

but the fact is the regulars come down hard on anyone who might offer up a controversial subject.




Synth I think you will find that it was my post before yours that comment on the price of the speakers. Just a point of view thats all from a regualar

[ricdiggle]

I'm at a loss here. Just read this thread in it's entirety and it makes very little sense.



Synth, I'm sure your speakrs are everything you say they are. I'm sure most people don't want the hassle of building their own. Your pre-made examples really don't count in any way shape or form. They are premanufactured speakers just like the ones in Sevenoaks.

I don't understand the problem at all. Why can't you accept that people are happy buying brand name products and enjoying them in their homes? It's very clear that everyone else here can accept that you would not be happy with anything you consider less than perfect and that you are passionate about building your own.



About 4 years ago I was driving down a country road at 100mph in the rain inside my very lovely Subaru Impreza Turbo. I was bored out of my mind with how easy the car made everything. I decided I wanted to buy a featherweight kit car with a motorbike engine in it instead because I knew the performance would better the Scooby and that it would require my uttmost skill as a driver to control (Very much unlike the boring Scooby)

The next day I went to the Westfield Factory, got the life scared out of me by the owners son doing mad things in the centre of Dudley, and placed my order. The performance on offer was staggering. Nothing short of a £500,000 supercar could touch this thing, yet it cost £12,000 as a complete kit. I had a friend with me at the time, who also bought one. This is where things may start to have relevance (At last I hear you cry!)

My friend bought the complete kit and in 3 weeks it was delivered to his door in various bags and boxes. He was happy as larry for the next 18 months building his dream machine. I went to help sometimes but ...

I paid them £1500 for mine to be built. 2 months later, I went to collect my completed car. I got to drive my car for 16 months before he even got to turn over his engine.

&quot;Ah&quot;, I hear you ask, &quot;Who had the best car at the end of it all?&quot; Of course, he did. We spent about the same amount of money and he got to lavish all the extras on it and personally make sure everything was perfect. I had to trust the factory team and sure enough, my car could have been better built. (Not much better mind you). It's my perceived importance of this that's key here.



The relevance is thus:



I wanted a car to drive and got one. He wanted a car to build and then drive. He got one. We were both like pigs in http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/images/smiley_icons/censored.gif. I could well have bought the kit or parts to DIY it but I was happier behind the wheel driving the thing.



I'd love some of your amps or your speakers but I really, honest to god don't want to build them. I would not have the skill to erect the shed to do the tinkering in, never mind anything else. I'm also blissfully happy with what I have. A few years ago, my system was much more complete (and expensive) and I seemed to spend my time listening for imperfections and faults to cure.

My new system is in it's infancy and will no doubt change but every night, I come home from work and put the needle in the groove and just plain old listen. Nothing more. I don't fret the bass response of my room, the dynamics or distortions from my tweeters. I like it that way. The odd bit of tinkering and maybe an upgrade now and then.

You like to go the whole hog and DIY the lot. That's bloody fantastic and I'm sure you have a better sounding system than I do. That doesn't mean that if you and I sat in our respective houses and listened to the same CD, that you'd be happier than I, or enjoy the experience more than I. I enjoy listening to music (I'd say the same about watching films but it's not really true) I don't enjoy DIY. You like both and you're a lucky man. You seem very passionate about your skills and the results you have obtained. I'd love a listen. You can come to my house, listen to my system and tell me I've been had by the brand name producers. I'll still enjoy my Vinyl just as much when you leave.



Richard

[martintyler]

It must be great to have that pack mentality.



I've seen a few interesting discussion on here and Eric talks about his openness and honesty etc. but the fact is the regulars come down hard on anyone who might offer up a controversial subject.



Instead of actually debating the points, things turn to character slurring and petty comments that belong in a 10 year olds mouth.






I think you will find I and others started debating the points, which you ignored and kept quoting your '3k speaker' which it simply isnt, just about everyone agreed it wasnt, this wasnt pack mentality, it was fact - that none of us though that spending hours of our own time building our own speakers meant they cost what the components cost. You continue to go on about your 3k speakers, even after describing all the time you have spent, all the software, all the tools, all the changes in design. So you then start talking about premade DIY speakers (an oxymoron if i ever heard one), and again, a reasonable debate came back which you ignored.. how are these premade DIY speakers any different to the speakers you claim are all a rip off? Maybe they are better value and perform better, but as i already said, every commercial speaker has different value and performance. Maybe your 'premade DIY' speakers are the best, in which case they are simply the best commercial speakers available, rather than any proof that DIY is best since they arent DIY!!

[SYNTHesis]

I'm at a loss here. Just read this thread in it's entirety and it makes very little sense.



Synth, I'm sure your speakrs are everything you say they are. I'm sure most people don't want the hassle of building their own. Your pre-made examples really don't count in any way shape or form. They are premanufactured speakers just like the ones in Sevenoaks.

I don't understand the problem at all. Why can't you accept that people are happy buying brand name products and enjoying them in their homes? It's very clear that everyone else here can accept that you would not be happy with anything you consider less than perfect and that you are passionate about building your own.



About 4 years ago I was driving down a country road at 100mph in the rain inside my very lovely Subaru Impreza Turbo. I was bored out of my mind with how easy the car made everything. I decided I wanted to buy a featherweight kit car with a motorbike engine in it instead because I knew the performance would better the Scooby and that it would require my uttmost skill as a driver to control (Very much unlike the boring Scooby)

The next day I went to the Westfield Factory, got the life scared out of me by the owners son doing mad things in the centre of Dudley, and placed my order. The performance on offer was staggering. Nothing short of a £500,000 supercar could touch this thing, yet it cost £12,000 as a complete kit. I had a friend with me at the time, who also bought one. This is where things may start to have relevance (At last I hear you cry!)

My friend bought the complete kit and in 3 weeks it was delivered to his door in various bags and boxes. He was happy as larry for the next 18 months building his dream machine. I went to help sometimes but ...

I paid them £1500 for mine to be built. 2 months later, I went to collect my completed car. I got to drive my car for 16 months before he even got to turn over his engine.

&quot;Ah&quot;, I hear you ask, &quot;Who had the best car at the end of it all?&quot; Of course, he did. We spent about the same amount of money and he got to lavish all the extras on it and personally make sure everything was perfect. I had to trust the factory team and sure enough, my car could have been better built. (Not much better mind you). It's my perceived importance of this that's key here.



The relevance is thus:



I wanted a car to drive and got one. He wanted a car to build and then drive. He got one. We were both like pigs in http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/images/smiley_icons/censored.gif. I could well have bought the kit or parts to DIY it but I was happier behind the wheel driving the thing.



I'd love some of your amps or your speakers but I really, honest to god don't want to build them. I would not have the skill to erect the shed to do the tinkering in, never mind anything else. I'm also blissfully happy with what I have. A few years ago, my system was much more complete (and expensive) and I seemed to spend my time listening for imperfections and faults to cure.

My new system is in it's infancy and will no doubt change but every night, I come home from work and put the needle in the groove and just plain old listen. Nothing more. I don't fret the bass response of my room, the dynamics or distortions from my tweeters. I like it that way. The odd bit of tinkering and maybe an upgrade now and then.

You like to go the whole hog and DIY the lot. That's bloody fantastic and I'm sure you have a better sounding system than I do. That doesn't mean that if you and I sat in our respective houses and listened to the same CD, that you'd be happier than I, or enjoy the experience more than I. I enjoy listening to music (I'd say the same about watching films but it's not really true) I don't enjoy DIY. You like both and you're a lucky man. You seem very passionate about your skills and the results you have obtained. I'd love a listen. You can come to my house, listen to my system and tell me I've been had by the brand name producers. I'll still enjoy my Vinyl just as much when you leave.



Richard




Well said Richard. Easily the best post in this thread. I wish I had the articulation to get the same point across in the beginning. Likewise for the others here too.



Its a shame I was baited and indeed baited others in retaliation, turning the thread into more of joke than anything really constructive.



Like I said its difficult getting your point across on something controversial and misunderstood when you have that subject close to your heart and genuinely believe what you say is true. When folks turn around and deny it, its almost as if they're calling you a liar or saying the work is rubbish. The real point I was trying to get across got lost because of this and also because I felt I was on a defensive footing from the start. Consider me lightened up, only for the short term mind ;)~;-)~:wink:



Eric mentioned that I was dishonest and yes, I fully admit that I've never heard the Veena nor any of the AC range but then again I made that clear from the start. What I have done is spent time auditioning some fine commercial examples that I expect would stand up well against the AC's or Veena. The most costly of which would be the Wilson ACT's and the B&amp;W N803D both lacked the same magic I have now and both quite a bit more expensive, especially with associated electronics.



The real issue was that the Veena seemed vastly overpriced in material terms. Its a habit DIY'ers have and we tend to dissect everything we see down to the bare components, even going so far as to identify the driver manufacturer and taking educated guesses at costs.



I appologise to Eric and others on here if I have offended you but don't forget that the offensive and sometimes non sensical talk wasn't just from my side. In fact I imagine Eric is just as passionate as I about audio because he too wears his emotions for all to see. If he likes something it really shows and if he takes offense to something someone's said he resorts to personal insults :lol: That was a joke BTW.

[SYNTHesis]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">SYNTHesis wrote on Fri, 21 October 2005 22:57</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">


It must be great to have that pack mentality.



I've seen a few interesting discussion on here and Eric talks about his openness and honesty etc. but the fact is the regulars come down hard on anyone who might offer up a controversial subject.



Instead of actually debating the points, things turn to character slurring and petty comments that belong in a 10 year olds mouth.






I think you will find I and others started debating the points, which you ignored and kept quoting your '3k speaker' which it simply isnt, just about everyone agreed it wasnt, this wasnt pack mentality, it was fact - that none of us though that spending hours of our own time building our own speakers meant they cost what the components cost. You continue to go on about your 3k speakers, even after describing all the time you have spent, all the software, all the tools, all the changes in design. So you then start talking about premade DIY speakers (an oxymoron if i ever heard one), and again, a reasonable debate came back which you ignored.. how are these premade DIY speakers any different to the speakers you claim are all a rip off? Maybe they are better value and perform better, but as i already said, every commercial speaker has different value and performance. Maybe your 'premade DIY' speakers are the best, in which case they are simply the best commercial speakers available, rather than any proof that DIY is best since they arent DIY!!




Point taken Martin.



The pack mentality wasn't targetted at that particular part of the thread. Just the bit where Eric commented and others slapped each other on the back.



The difference between DIY'ers and folks who buy commercial is that the DIY'er don't consider the time to be valuable because its something you enjoy and the commercial folks enjoy picking something and then simply sitting back and enjoying it rather than have an indefinite interim or limbo state.



Like I said before, when your passionate about something and completely believe what your saying is true then its easy to come off as reticent when folks say its not true.



The bit about the ready to go kits from Wilmslow could be argued as DIY and/or commercial. Actually the drivers in my speakers are a commercial product, same goes for all the components that make up my my amps. Its all symantics.

[SYNTHesis]

Eric I hope you can accept my appologies. In person I'm a decent guy like the rest of folks. In a forum its easy to forget your manners and that the folks on the other end are really just the same as everyone else.



I doubt you'd consider it after what's passed but how about I build a similar design to the Veena's and post it off to you and pay for the return postage, ideally a bookshelf model to avoid massive postage costs. Forget all the DIY vs. Commercial stuff and the cost savings. It would be just good fun to hear the comments about something I'd made from a fellow enthusiast with a broad listening base.



I'm note sure exactly how long it would take me to build such a thing but its obviously not going to take anything like the amount of time spent on the one's I use at the moment.

[Squirrelecto]

Well I'm glad our points have finally sunk in and you have seen them for what they actually were. The frustration evident from myself and others was merely due to the fact that we felt like we were banging our heads against a brickwall in that you were not hearing what we were saying, which all comes down to personal preferences. Ric is quite masterful with his explanations, so we may have to give him a 'Forum Referee' tag.



Since you've brought up the Aurum Cantuses ... What I wanted to say earlier, but which I didn't bother saying because it just would've been lost in all the frustration, was that the Aurum Cantuses are a particular pertinent example. The ribbon tweeter used in the Leisures, for example, is an Aurum Cantus proprietary design, which they also sell separately for DIY enthusiasts. If you have a look at the Aurum Cantus thread, you'll see that Eric even posted a link to where you could buy this tweeter from, for those who fancied trying to mimic the speakers! (see top of page 2 here (http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&amp;th=10624&amp;prevloaded=1&amp;rid=9&amp;SQ=112 9939672&amp;start=25), although note that the store has since reorganised somewhat, so you need to click the link at the bottom and then follow the trail to get to the G3Si ribbon). If you look at the price of the ribbon and just take into account the other components, including the superb cabinet constructions and finish, then even you might think that they are very good value for money compared to other commercial speakers? :)~:-)~:smile:

[ricdiggle]

Eric I hope you can accept my appologies. In person I'm a decent guy like the rest of folks. In a forum its easy to forget your manners and that the folks on the other end are really just the same as everyone else.



I doubt you'd consider it after what's passed but how about I build a similar design to the Veena's and post it off to you and pay for the return postage, ideally a bookshelf model to avoid massive postage costs. Forget all the DIY vs. Commercial stuff and the cost savings. It would be just good fun to hear the comments about something I'd made from a fellow enthusiast with a broad listening base.



I'm note sure exactly how long it would take me to build such a thing but its obviously not going to take anything like the amount of time spent on the one's I use at the moment.




That's an incredible offer indeed but I don't think it'll help your arguement. The DIY route is simply not feasible for most. Either due to lack of skill or knowledge or time. The fact of the matter is, businesses run for a reason. To make money. Time costs a huge amount of money in a strictly business sense and ignoring this fact is futile here. I hope you build them and send them off. It'll be very interesting to hear Eric's thoughts on them compared to the ACs so many of us lust after, having had a demo at Eric's place. Just don't expect all of us to build a pair afterwards, it just wont happen no matter how glowing the report. Now if you were to build a pair as good as or better than the AC Vollas with incredible amplification and offer them for sale at cost price, I'll snap your hand off. Trouble is, I think your time would suddenly become a seriously important factor.



Richard



EDIT: Sorry, that makes it appear that I hadn't read your post. In fact, I had, and appreciate your offer for what it is, and was described as. It's incredibly generous and would indeed prove very interesting. :EDIT

[ricdiggle]

Ric is quite masterful with his explanations, so we may have to give him a 'Forum Referee' tag.






Yeah for me! I was hoping for 'Film Hater' though! :lol:

[SYNTHesis]

Well I'm glad our points have finally sunk in and you have seen them for what they actually were. The frustration evident from myself and others was merely due to the fact that we felt like we were banging our heads against a brickwall in that you were not hearing what we were saying, which all comes down to personal preferences. Ric is quite masterful with his explanations, so we may have to give him a 'Forum Referee' tag.



Since you've brought up the Aurum Cantuses ... What I wanted to say earlier, but which I didn't bother saying because it just would've been lost in all the frustration, was that the Aurum Cantuses are a particular pertinent example. The ribbon tweeter used in the Leisures, for example, is an Aurum Cantus proprietary design, which they also sell separately for DIY enthusiasts. If you have a look at the Aurum Cantus thread, you'll see that Eric even posted a link to where you could buy this tweeter from, for those who fancied trying to mimic the speakers! (see top of page 2 here (http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&amp;th=10624&amp;prevloaded=1&amp;rid=9&amp;SQ=112 9939672&amp;start=25), although note that the store has since reorganised somewhat, so you need to click the link at the bottom and then follow the trail to get to the G3Si ribbon). If you look at the price of the ribbon and just take into account the other components, including the superb cabinet constructions and finish, then even you might think that they are very good value for money compared to other commercial speakers? :)~:-)~:smile:




Thanks SG and absolutely no hard feelings. I guess if your slower than most the point takes longer to hit home but at least it does get their eventually :lol:



I'm also familiar with the AC drivers and particularly the ribbons. The G1 is the range topper and the one I'd be really interested in hearing. Its funny because its in the same performance tier as the Scan ring radiator tweeters I use, a direct comparison would be very interesting. At these price points (around $450 each) we're quite obviously into diminising returns and anything here will be almost guaranteed to be neutral, low distortion and generally a very natural sounding driver. I expect them to be very closely matched.



I've got a desire to build something with the G1, the only problem is that I'd have to ship them over from the US, if it wasn't for that reason then I may have been mentioning my speakers that feature a G1 instead of the Scan ring.

[Nic Rhodes]

Richard



best post I have read in ages. :thumbup:

[Uncle Eric]

Well said guys.





Synth,

I understand why you said the 'pack mentality' but that's not correct mate. Many of us here are very friendly with each other but trust me, if I said 2 + 2 = 5, I'd be pulled up on it in seconds!



As Martin has been trying to say right through this thread, for most of us, Time = money.



Regarding the Aurum Cantus G1 ribbon tweeter, as used in the Volla and Harmony, speaker kit manufacturer Northcreek Music recently designed a floorstander around them. Check out this (http://www.northcreekmusic.com/Manifest/ManifestInfo.htm) thread. In particular, take a look at the waterfall chart and designers comments at the bottom of the page.



&quot;What is of special importance is that the decay is nearly complete by 0.8msec, of an incredible 0.2msec after the impulse is turned off. Within 1msec, the ribbon diaphragm is completely back to rest.



All told, this is the best measured performance this designer has ever recorded&quot;



I've also seen the FR chart and distortion figures of the G1 and they are equally impressive. What is of note in particular is the fact that the G1 tweeters are approx $900 per pair and the Volla sells for £2500 per pair. Now for a commercially made speaker, (and taking into account the rest of the speaker plus the superlative quality of finish) even you'd have to admit that is a fair amount of money in the Volla.

Edit: Oops. Squirrel has already said as much!



Regarding building a speaker for me to check out. I'd be more than happy to review anything you send down. Make no mistake, your hard work and effort will be listened to with honesty and integrity. Hell if I like them I'll commision you to make more if you're willing to do so.



I think a reasonable one to try and outdo is something along the lines of the Reference 3a Dulcet (http://www.reference3a.com/dulcet.htm)



This is one of the best compact mini monitors I've ever heard. It's a simple crossover less two way design using a widely available tweeter but I believe the mid range unit is their own proprietary driver.

[Bob007]

SYNTHesis



In a previous post you state you like the sound of Actives, just wondered if you have or have thought about designing and building some actives yourself.



While I'm on about actives, what about a sub?

[markb84]

SYNTHesis



In a previous post you state you like the sound of Actives, just wondered if you have or have thought about designing and building some actives yourself.



While I'm on about actives, what about a sub?




Would be loverly to see/hear a very nice transmission line sub :nod:

[SYNTHesis]

SYNTHesis



In a previous post you state you like the sound of Actives, just wondered if you have or have thought about designing and building some actives yourself.



While I'm on about actives, what about a sub?




The speakers I mentioned earlier in this thread are active, I took an unusual approach though and used a PC as a dedicated DSP.



I outlined exactly how I did that in this thread, with lots of nice screen grabs and easy to understand explanations:



http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&amp;threadi (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&amp;threadid=63078) d=63078



What the PC essentially does is create the individual frequency bands that are then sent on to the amplifiers which are directly coupled to the speakers with no passive components in between. Another advantage of the using the PC is the abundance of processing power for very little cost, this meant the I could use digital room correction filters and FIR filters which normally would cost around £2000 for a standalone dedicated unit such as the DEQX.



PC's general get a bad rep for sound quality though, no thanks to onboard sound solutions and gaming cards such as the Creative ones. Truth is you can get excellent quality by using studio level soundcards like RME, Lynx, Creamware, EMU etc. These cards are designed for creating and mastering music and sound so much of what you hear on modern CD's has passed through similar cards. Ontop of this I give the performance a shot in the arm by using an Antelope Isochrone OCX dedicated master clock to minimise jitter.



Perhaps more important than the soundcard though is the actual software used to process audio. I personally use Waves and Voxengo software to do the processing and filtering. All of which is mastering grade software generally found in studios.

[SYNTHesis]

Well said guys.





Synth,

I understand why you said the 'pack mentality' but that's not correct mate. Many of us here are very friendly with each other but trust me, if I said 2 + 2 = 5, I'd be pulled up on it in seconds!



As Martin has been trying to say right through this thread, for most of us, Time = money.



Regarding the Aurum Cantus G1 ribbon tweeter, as used in the Volla and Harmony, speaker kit manufacturer Northcreek Music recently designed a floorstander around them. Check out this (http://www.northcreekmusic.com/Manifest/ManifestInfo.htm) thread. In particular, take a look at the waterfall chart and designers comments at the bottom of the page.



&quot;What is of special importance is that the decay is nearly complete by 0.8msec, of an incredible 0.2msec after the impulse is turned off. Within 1msec, the ribbon diaphragm is completely back to rest.



All told, this is the best measured performance this designer has ever recorded&quot;



I've also seen the FR chart and distortion figures of the G1 and they are equally impressive. What is of note in particular is the fact that the G1 tweeters are approx $900 per pair and the Volla sells for £2500 per pair. Now for a commercially made speaker, (and taking into account the rest of the speaker plus the superlative quality of finish) even you'd have to admit that is a fair amount of money in the Volla.

Edit: Oops. Squirrel has already said as much!



Regarding building a speaker for me to check out. I'd be more than happy to review anything you send down. Make no mistake, your hard work and effort will be listened to with honesty and integrity. Hell if I like them I'll commision you to make more if you're willing to do so.



I think a reasonable one to try and outdo is something along the lines of the Reference 3a Dulcet (http://www.reference3a.com/dulcet.htm)



This is one of the best compact mini monitors I've ever heard. It's a simple crossover less two way design using a widely available tweeter but I believe the mid range unit is their own proprietary driver.




Agreed Eric, the G1 is on the top of tweeter pile.



Northcreek look like they have an interesting package, especially the ambience tweeter to the rear. The problem here though is the that cabinet need plenty of space to breath around the sides and rear. Its effectively operating as a dipole speaker in the upper ranges. I bet they sound wonderful if you give them the setup care they deserve.



The Dulcet does look like the one I'd like to emulate. Its small enough to build quickly and easily and postage would be much cheaper too than than a floorstander.



What I'll do is PM you when I start construction and I'll also start a thread to give folks a general idea as to what the contruction process looks like and the sort of times involved.



I've also got this wonderful looking veneer that I've been itching to use. I originally bought it to cover the bomfunk speakers I have now but the veneer sheets were smaller than the cabinets so match and joining looked almost impossible - it would have looked like a patchwork quilt! But a small standmount would be perfect to wrap this veneer around.



http://www.valeveneers.co.uk/simons_files/images/1809n.jpg

[juboy]

The Dulcet does look like the one I'd like to emulate. Its small enough to build quickly and easily and postage would be much cheaper too than than a floorstander.



What I'll do is PM you when I start construction and I'll also start a thread to give folks a general idea as to what the contruction process looks like and the sort of times involved.




I'm really pleased that this thread has come round to a happy ending... and I'll be very interested to see the development and read the review of the DIY speakers you'll be putting together for Eric to evaluate.



What would be useful is if you could keep track of all the time you spend on the project and also any other costs (no matter how small), just so that we can put a real world price tag to them.

[markb84]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">SYNTHesis wrote on Sat, 22 October 2005 14:50</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
The Dulcet does look like the one I'd like to emulate. Its small enough to build quickly and easily and postage would be much cheaper too than than a floorstander.



What I'll do is PM you when I start construction and I'll also start a thread to give folks a general idea as to what the contruction process looks like and the sort of times involved.




I'm really pleased that this thread has come round to a happy ending... and I'll be very interested to see the development and read the review of the DIY speakers you'll be putting together for Eric to evaluate.



What would be useful is if you could keep track of all the time you spend on the project and also any other costs (no matter how small), just so that we can put a real world price tag to them.




images/smiley_icons/dito.gif

[SYNTHesis]

Started a new thread for the DIY speakers:



http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&amp;goto=17227 (http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&amp;goto=172272&amp;rid=4491&amp;SQ=1130192630 #msg_172272) 2&amp;rid=4491&amp;SQ=1130192630#msg_172272