Laugh out loud upgrades

[Gordon, Convergent-AV]

Not sure where to post this so thought I'd try here.



I used to work in Glasgow at a dealership and we had a customer who was a big music buff and hifi fan. He was/is also a scientist working in hitech industry. He has access to materials and composites in his job that you may not think would have any bearing on audio quality. However, he and my old boss tried to develop a new range of furniture but it never managed to be productionised. I left Scotland last year and got dropped out of loop of what was happening. In the intervening time period the customer has gone alone and developed some "pads" that fit under your equipment to make them sound better.



I should mention at this point that in the past when I have heard these sort of things like wooden blocks etc I've never thought things got better, only worse, if any change at all. So I've been up in Scotland last week and popped in to see and old friend I used to work with and he had some of these little pads in his shop. I asked for a demo. We played a bit of music and then he stick them under a NAIM CDS3 transport. Played the same part again and I was astounded. Laugh out loud funny difference. So I asked if I could take a handfull away to show other folk to guage their response.



Today I was with another dealer (Eric) and showed him the things. We played a video clip through a hi-end HT system (Nora Jones, from Jay Leno programme) streamed from a PMS media server. Then I stuck the two of these under it and played it again. He and I were both really surprised at the difference. I thought there would be none but there was...you could hear the bass line more clearly and it sounded louder! Weird



So the customer came home and we played a CD on his hi-end cd player and did the same thing, sticking 4 under the feet of it. This time a pretty profound difference. Pronounciation of the lyrics was much clearer, bass lines, guitar lines much easier to follow. The customer appeared pretty astounded that these little pads could do this, I know I was.



Anyway. I'd like to lend 4 out to see what non-nutter-audio-video divs like me think of them. If you fancy a shot list what you have in your system and I'll make a decision. You will have to pay for postage back to me though.



Gordon

[iaria]

Hi there Gordon, I will try some for you if you like, I am always trying something to improve, but never found anything that works

My equipment is in my signature, have a look and see what you think

Gerry

[mr cat]

I'll be up for this too...



however - my cd player is placed under my integrated amp - so, that may lesson the effect slightly..? (or even squash the pads? :D~:-D~:grin: )

but it should be ok on my (or under) my dvd player...



cheers



p.s. but your decision to see what kit we have first before you send them out - whats the reasoning behind that..?

[Madge]

p.s. but your decision to see what kit we have first before you send them out - whats the reasoning behind that..?


I'm not Gordon, but I assume that's so that they can test the pads on as wide range of price scale equipment as possible.

[ricdiggle]

Yeah! I love things like this!



I'd love to try them and see how they compare to Nordost Pulsar Points (which make a big difference under my transports)



The transports in my system are: Lex Rt-10; Snazio 1350 and Theta Data II CD transport.



I have a condition too though - I need to know how much they cost before you send them :D~:-D~:grin:



Richard

[Uncle Eric]

Have to say this experience yesterday was weird. It's one of those snake oil products that shouldn't work but they do. And you know what? The difference wasn't small.



Initially I thought Gordon had turned the volume up when in fact he wasn't anywhere near the master remote or Lex processor.



I've decided I'm going to load my rack up with these :D~:-D~:grin:

[Nic Rhodes]

I'm game. Do we know what they are?

[mr cat]

Do we know what they are?




we don't - but they do... :lol:

[Gordon, Convergent-AV]

In Tony tiger voice...."They're GRRRREEEEEAAAAAATTTTTTT!"



G

[Gordon, Convergent-AV]

I'll try to let as many of you as poss try some for a short period. In meantime lets wait and see what response i get from those currently on loan.



G

[Lorddalron]

I have ago with them if you dont mind.

I take it they make a diference with both music and dvd's???

[Matt Horne]

Me too I'm Game.... I'll be interested to see if I hear any difference..



Matt

[paulfd]

Wouldn't mind a go as well.



Interested to see if it makes a difference on analogue sources as well as digital



Cheers



Paul

[Gordon, Convergent-AV]

Well we'll see what is do-able guys. Lets stop the list now and if everyone can be patient I'll try to get to you all.



G :thumbup:

[Bomb_Squad]

Is this the same fella who invented the ingrediants for what drove your custom power leads?



Sounds interesting mate



Adz

[Gordon, Convergent-AV]

No it's not adz. Although imho it's an even bigger difference than Umbilical.



Gordon

[deckard]

Sounds great Gordon, although as with all these things, could I request that someone does a blind A-B test when they get them. It's easy to convince yourself there's a difference otherwise [and no, I'm not alleging they don't work, I'm a believer in supports etc].

[velodyneT100]

could I request that someone does a blind A-B test when they get them.




:nod:

[ricdiggle]

I got the Pads on Friday of last week and spent around 6 hours yesterday listening to music with and without them under my transport. Many thanks Gordon.





Equipment Used:



Theta Data II CD transport --> Audio Synthesis DAX Decade DAC--> Chord 1203 amp --> Aurum Cantus Volla Speakers.

All cables (Co-ax, interconnect and speaker) are reference JAV Audio silver.



All my findings below are based soley on when the pads were placed under the Theta transport. I tried them under everything but they only audibly help the transport IMHO.



I'd like to make an observation at this point. The pads are very thin and the only real option is to place them under the existing feet of your equipment. If you try to put them under the actual unit itself, the feet of your player will prove too long and the pads will be missed altogether. Experience using Nordost Pulsar Points tells me that the feet are often badly located for convenience. This is certainly the case with my theta. When using the Pulsar Points, I have them about 1/3 of the way to the middle of the transport and it works much better than having them under the feet. I guess the best way around this is to take the feet off first but I didn't do this myself.



Software List



[i]Song - Artist (Album) (Why this track)



Superstition - Stevie Wonder (The Definitive Collection) (picked specifically because it's a bad recording)

Little Wing - Stevie Ray Vaughan (The Sky is Crying) (the definition of what a blues guitar should sound like. The drum track is just incredibly real too)

The Next Episode - Dr. Dre (2001) (often sighted as a great recording - IMHO it's heavily compressed radio fodder)

One Last Breath - Creed (Weathered) (Very well recorded male vocal with badly recorded backing - very high levels)

No One Knows - QOTSA (Songs for the Deaf) (levels are insane and at times it sounds like it's in 5.1 as it wraps the vocal around the listener)

Touching Tongues - Vai (Sex and Religion) (Heavy guitars and so many things going on that mids tend to get confused. The high percussion is relentless, coming at you from all over the soundstage)

This is Heaven to Me - Madeline Payroux (Careless Love) (Incredible recording of the voice and the backing is just to die for)

Gravity and Restless - Alison Krauss (Lonely Runs Both Ways) (My reference for female vocals - until now!) The levels are insane and the recording is incredibly detailed - I hate most of the music though)

The Blower's Daughter - Damien Rice - (O) (Drops so low in places that most systems just give up and fart out one long bass sounds for half the record)

La Noyee and L'Autre Valse D'Amelie - Yann Tiersen (Amelie OST) (An odd recording - there is pretty much no centre image, just hard panned left and right - the recoding is very honest too and the levels are way up high)

I'm On To You - Neil Diamond (12 Songs) (Incredible test for your system this one. Very simple arrangement spread out all over place. One guitar to the left, one to the right, one in the middle which should appear behind the lead vocal which is a bit too loud in the mix and makes it sound like Neil Diamond is sitting on your knee. The vocal is so honest it sounds like the mic was placed inside Neil's voice box too :lol:)

Mrs. Jack's Last Stand and Nanci - Adrien Legg (Guitar for Mortals) (outstanding recording of a single instrument that you would swear blind is at least 3. Recording is heavily reverbed and the soundstage is huge.)

Fire Garden Suite - Steve Vai - (Fire Garden) (This has everything - gentle melodies, sound effects, a guitar / piano duel, and then crushing rock with screaming lead guitar. Sublime recording too)





This is pretty much my standard choice of songs to listen to when I'm really in the mood to test some kit out. There are others too like the Buddy Holly Master Tape CD et al but these didn't feature yesterday.



The Test



I placed the pads under the Theta and ran the Isotek disc on track 1 (no subwoofer) for about 70 minutes. I then left the pads under the kit and listened to all the tracks in the order listed above. I then listened to them all again without the pads. ( I cheated here - more on this later too) Then I did a blind test (My missus helped by putting them in and out of the system) to see if I could really hear the difference between them being there or not. This was after about 5 hours of listening. More on that later.



Conclusions



First off. I'm impressed. They look good and do make a difference to the sound of your system. Compared to Pulsar Points, they are very unobtrusive indeed in the looks department.



The tracks above are pretty well established in my head. I know what they sound like fairly well. If something sounds different, I'll hear it hopefully. In particular the 2 Vai tracks, the Madeline Payroux and the Alison Krauss tracks are, for me, the easiest measures of performance enhancement as I know them so well.



Was there a 'revelation' whilst using the pads? Yes there was.



Listening to the tracks the first time (With the pads in place) I was greeted with a very airy and open sound. Seperation is absolutely stunning and the definition of the soundstage is huge in all directions. The centre image is pin sharp with well recorded vocals and lead instruments really jumping out into the middle of the room. Vocals sound real whether male or female. High frequencies are superbly clear (thank god for ribbons!), mid bass is puchy and weighty and bass just astounds with it's drive and level from standmount speakers.

To be honest though, it's a sound I'm used to. I heard nothing that I don't hear with the Pulsar Points in place. Well, almost nothing. Three things jumped out at me that I'd never heard before and I needed to investigate further.



On the second pass of the tracks I left the Theta completely without support (other than it's built in feet) and the reason I cheated was simple - it sounded awful and the need to not carry on was evident after even 2 minutes of listening. Bass suddenly sounded very flabby and the speakers clearly were not reaching down to the levels they were before. Vocals regressed back towards the rear wall and the high end lacked any sparkle and air. So, I cheated. Instead of using the Theta on it's own, I put the Pulsar Points back underneath and decided to compare the pads with these. I'm glad I did too.



At first I heard pretty much the sound I'd been listening to for a couple of hours. The Pulsar Points and the pads doing a remarkably similar job. Those three things I mentioned earlier were still niggling though and they were not evident with the Pulsar points.



The three things that really jumped out at me were as follows:



1. Alison Krauss' vocals on Restless and Gravity have been my staple reference for female vocals for a long time. I always considered both tracks to be utterly brilliant. The separation is sublime with the band being spread very cleverly across the soundstage and the vocal coming out into the room so far you can almost smell Alison Krauss! The vocal is high and very pure. Close mic'ed to the extreme and very honest. However, with the pads you can really clearly hear the compression on the vocal track. It sticks out like a sore thumb in fact. I listened to it 4 times in a row with the pads in place, utterly dumbstruck by what I was hearing. I must have listened to these songs 1000s of times and it never sounded anything less than perfect before. But here it was. Subtly compressed vocals on my reference track! I listened four times with the Pulsar Points too - just to be sure. It's not there with these. It sounds great again. So back with the pads - now other things start to become apparent as well! The reverb on the drums starts to become much more prominent and sweet sounding; The guitars (which already sound incredibly real) just seem perfect. I think what the pads give the music is a much sweeter top end sound - the detail is much more prominent which is why the reverb sounds so good - you can hear the reverb tail off all the way. You can hear the vocal compressor clipping that top end off Alison's voice before it distorts. Wow! Well, wow but I'm not sure I like it really!



2. Adran Legg's 'Nanci' is a single fingerpicked acoustic guitar piece. The reverb is very heavy, the picking is incredibly fast and it's all about your mids and highs. There are a few instances where he plays natural harmonics on the guitar and they just sore right over your head in the right setup. The recording is beautiful really and I imagine it's made up of several mics around a fairly large room. The soundstage should be quite narrow as it's just one guitar but instead it manages to be huge with different parts of the song clearly audible from different locations. ( he plays the backing and the melody at the same time and the two sound like they are played on separate instruments almost)



With the pads in place, I heard something quite new in this track. Something I liked a lot. The reverb, as mentioned, is very heavily applied throughout and it just sounded better with the pads in place. You could hear the reverb tails forever! I'm at a loss to explain what I heard eloquently but the best way I can think of is to describe the effect as more realistic yet very clearly digital! Oh crap, that doesn't sound right at all does it!



You can hear the reverb decaying as if you are there in the room - there is no roll off to it at all. It goes on forever and as new note reverberations begin they overlap those that have already started but never interfere with them. The result is astonishing and the definition of the high end was a real treat to my ears. The Pulsar Points do not achieve this in any measure.



3. The Middle section of Touching Tongues by Vai is something of a test for any system I've ever heard. As I mentioed earlier the amount of layers in the track can get pretty confusing to your ears as well as your mid drivers. The bass really sinks quite low too in places and this just makes coping with all that information even more difficult. There is percussion coming at you from all over the place too and its almost impossible to listen to without moving your head from speaker to speaker every now and again. The sheer amount of information being conveyed is mind numbing in places but it does all have it's place in the soundstage.

This was the first time I heard a negative difference in using the pads - the track simply didn't have the differentiation I'm used to in the mids. It did get confusing and it did all sort of muddle together in places. Not nice at all. However, the highs were really distinct and I heard lots of little touches that I'd never heard before in my system. Bass was good too, very driving and hard edged when it should have been. When I put the Pulsar points back the mids were all clearly separated again but the high were nothing like as sweet.



So, what did I think?



Compared to not using any support, the difference was massive. Bass in particular benefitted from a severe tightening and this gives your music a pace that simply isn't there without them. High end realism is also enhanced and, as I mentioned several times, it seems the level of detail given to your tweeters is improved greatly. The mids are much much more punchy and weighty giving realism to vocal and lead instruments. All these little improvements add up to make a much more realistic listening experience. Your speakers are given a greatly improved signal to work with and that can only ever be a good thing. I very briefly tried them under my Snazzio and streamed some Mp3 files through my DAX. The result was a massive improvement but not quite enough to make me think the snazzio was in any way a good transport. :lol:



Compared to the Pulsar Points - they are different but I wouldn't say better. In terms of bass response both Pulsar Points and pads offer a huge improvement - during the blind testing afterwards I could barely tell them apart in fact. The give away for me was two fold. The Pulsar Points really help the mids and the pads really help the high frequencies. When you listen to them, it's pretty clear which is which as the effect of each is not subtle. I absolutely love the sound the pads made on certain tracks where the highs are important but I couldn't forgive them their lesser ability with the mid frquencies where my Pulsar Points really shine.



I've not gone into too much detail about the blind tests I did as they only lasted about 10 minutes! One of the main problems I had was constantly being called a geeky weirdo by my giggling missus and then after the third switch over she actually just left me in the room to go and make the dinner :lol: I knew something was wrong when I could hear the children laughing hard outside the door as I'm sitting there asking no-one to play that one again with a different support! Buggers!



Anyway! What I tried next was to combine the two so I placed the pads underneath the Pulsar Points. It didn't really help and looked stupid too. I think I'd be better off trying the pads on their own but on a better rack (mine is just a soft pine cabinet) I think they would benefit from being placed on something with a hard surface to start with.



I would also love to try them underneath my speakers but don't have enough to do this sadly.



I'm very impressed with these and the level of detail they churn out in the high range is astonishing really - hearing that compressor on Alison Krauss' voice is still spooking me out bit. If you have nothing else, give them some serious consideration.



Many thanks for letting me try these Gordon. :thumbup:



Richard

[ricdiggle]

lol - how much did I just write! :lol:

[Gordon, Convergent-AV]

Ric: You know you can stack them up in piles of three if you want to create your own "feet". According to the manufacturer they actually sound even better if you do that....Do you want me to send you four more to try that? I'll have to nick them back of a mate I gave some to...



Oh, how much are the Pulsar thingies?



G

[ricdiggle]

Ric: You know you can stack them up in piles of three if you want to create your own "feet". According to the manufacturer they actually sound even better if you do that....Do you want me to send you four more to try that? I'll have to nick them back of a mate I gave some to...



Oh, how much are the Pulsar thingies?



G




I didn't think of that at all Gordon. I'll happily try it out. I'd be able to try them under my speakers too then :thumbup: I might get time to have a look at them under my RT-10 this week if I'm ok to hang onto them for a while.



Pulsars are £55 for 4 in Aluminium and £200+ for titanium ones - mine are the ali ones.

[deckard]

Well done Richard on a comprehensive review and good methodology, shame the missus couldn't stop p!ssing herself with laughter for long enough! :lol:

[ricdiggle]

Well done Richard on a comprehensive review and good methodology, shame the missus couldn't stop p!ssing herself with laughter for long enough! :lol:




:nod: :lol:

[Uncle Eric]

Great review Ric. Brilliantly done! I think we're going to have to find you a new missus :lol:

[ricdiggle]

Great review Ric. Brilliantly done! I think we're going to have to find you a new missus :lol:




This is the new missus!

[juboy]

Great review Ric, for what seems like a very interesting product. Presumably these are going to be available to buy at some point?

[Gordon, Convergent-AV]

Sure will Julian.



Hope to have more news and prices mid week.



G :thumbup:

[Covenant]

Could you describe the construction of the pads?

[Matt Horne]

Go on rich try them under the RT-10.. preferably going through the Lex processor as well... it'll save me trying them ;)~;-)~:wink:

[ricdiggle]

Go on rich try them under the RT-10.. preferably going through the Lex processor as well... it'll save me trying them ;)~;-)~:wink:




I will do Matt but don't really have time until the weekend. If it helps, I find the Pulsar Points make a bigger difference under the RT-10 than the Theta and would expect these to do the same.



Richard

[Matt Horne]

Hmm I am already using one of Erics platform things (damn the name escapes me) I just wonder if my cloth ears would really hear a difference ?? :)~:-)~:smile:



Matt

[ricdiggle]

Hmm I am already using one of Erics platform things (damn the name escapes me) I just wonder if my cloth ears would really hear a difference ?? :)~:-)~:smile:



Matt




Do they hear a difference with the isocushion?

[Matt Horne]

tbh its been so long I cannot say... I should remove it and try some listening.. but never get the time :shrug:

[Darkstar]

Any chance of posting a picture of these pads.

[Gordon, Convergent-AV]

When I get them back, yes.



Gordon

[iaria]

When I get them back, yes.



Gordon


Hurry up, can't wait :( :D~:-D~:grin:

Gerry

[Gordon, Convergent-AV]

Sorry guys. A dealer has one set and I can't get them back from them and Nic has another set and I'm waiting to hear from him....The manufacturer is out of country so can't get more yet.....oh...they are £70 for a set of four though.



Gordon

[ricdiggle]

Gordon,



I'll be happy to photograph these for you tomorrow evening if you would like?



I think I have about 35 hours of listening with these in place now and I'll be honest - my opinion has changed a bit for the positive - I'll post tomorrow when I have more time.



I really do not want to send you these back.



Richard

[Gordon, Convergent-AV]

Love it when a plan comes together.... :thumbup: :clap:



Gordon



Hope to pick up others tomorrow from dealer

[mr cat]

cool - so who'll be getting them next..? :D~:-D~:grin:

[Nic Rhodes]

Sorry all, Nic has been on holiday in Whitby :clap: He is on the case 8)~8-)~:cool:

[Gordon, Convergent-AV]

I'll let you off...everyone needs a holiday sometime....



Gordon

[ricdiggle]

I'll try to do those photos tonight Gordon but I'll be honest, I'm sat down now and it's gonna be a herculian effort on my part to get back up.



Richard

[ricdiggle]

Thoughts and photos tonight I promise.



Richard

[Matt Horne]

:roll: ;)~;-)~:wink:

[Gordon, Convergent-AV]

Hey it's early.....good news...I have retreived some from dealer...so if I get a chance I'll post some out tomorrow so someone can have fun at weekend...bu first...curry and beer



g

[Gordon, Convergent-AV]

Wow....I can take photo! OK Photo then curry and beer



G

[Gordon, Convergent-AV]

Pic



http://ct.pbase.com/o5/68/645868/1/69210839.FClbUhCl.BlackRavioli.jpg

[ricdiggle]

Gordon, that is just freakish of us!



Damn it though, I much prefer yours :bow:



http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6888



Richard

[ricdiggle]

Just one on it's own here:



http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6889

[Nic Rhodes]

Richard



I sent you some more yesterday, have you got them yet?

[ricdiggle]

Richard



I sent you some more yesterday, have you got them yet?




I did indeed Nic, many thanks.



I'll try them out this weekend.



What did you think about them Nic? I know you have several different kinds of support and I'm curious as to how these compared.



Richard

[martintyler]

do you have a photos for scale purposes? how big are they?



how do they look under the equipment? doesnt the 'pillow case' look a bit untidy if the feet of your equipment are right in the corners?

[ricdiggle]

do you have a photos for scale purposes? how big are they?



how do they look under the equipment? doesnt the 'pillow case' look a bit untidy if the feet of your equipment are right in the corners?




I'll take some of the ones under my CD tonight Martin.

[Matt Horne]

Whose going to cut into the bag and see whats inside w)

[Nic Rhodes]

Well these black ravioli really had me confused!! Yes they do work but I can't explain why which I find 'frustrating' :roll: They look really weird and try as I might I couldn't get them to 'accidently' fall apart. I have no idea what is inside but I suspect we are talking a modern composite here.



There appear to more than hold their own agaonst Pulsar point, sorbothane, oak, carbon fibre and a host of other toys I have here. Looking at their packaging it gives the impression of doing everything 'wrong' but the sound change is very significant. The certainly clean up high frequencies but do appear to add definition to the bass as well.



Well I was impressed but keep thinking someone is playing a trick on me and I have fallen for snake oil!



My findings seem to be in line with Richards far better prose but I think we might have been hearing similar things from our DAXs.

[Madge]

My findings seem to be in line with Richards far better prose but I think we might have been hearing similar things from our DAXs.


That's rather worrying TBH. I've always imagined the DAX as a cost-no-object bit of kit that happens to be rather cheap (compared to some inferior DACs), but if adding LRF to it improves the sound :?~:-?~:???:



BTW have you guys not thought that what's in the bag is not as important as the bag itself?

[Nic Rhodes]

The DAX was just the DAC, I used the pasta under the transport.

[ricdiggle]

What's LRF Madge?



I did try some under the DAX but couldn't hear any difference at all.



Richard

[Madge]

What's LRF Madge?



I did try some under the DAX but couldn't hear any difference at all.



Richard


Little Rubber Feet ;)~;-)~:wink:



Good to hear the Audio Synthesis products don't respond to such tweas at all :D~:-D~:grin:

[iaria]

Just one on it's own here:



http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=6889


Black Ravioli?? can you cook them?? :roll: just the name makes me think it's a joke :nod: maybe just thinking that they work it makes your ears hear something different

Gerry

[Gordon, Convergent-AV]

They are not little rubber feet.



Tried 4 under an Esoteric DVD player today playing cd's. Obvious improvment...then tried them under a B.A.T valve pre-amp the customer had and got same huge result.



G

[shodan]

OK folks, can we have an in depth review of them in place for a DVD player please? :bow:

[ricdiggle]

OK folks, can we have an in depth review of them in place for a DVD player please? :bow:




I've had these under a Lexicon RT-10 and a Snazzio 1350 HD network player. The differences in audio were just as significant as they were under my Theta CD transport (more so for the snazio) but I'm afraid I wouldn't like to comment on video performance as I really wouldn't know what to look for. I'm also not really familiar enough with any one 5.1 soundtrack to comment on differences either.



Richard

[shodan]

Fair enough mate, I guess no review is better than a bullhttp://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/images/smiley_icons/censored.gif review! :thumbup:

[ricdiggle]

I said a few days ago that I would update my comments as I now have quite a few more hours under my belt with these in place.



To recap, I was very happy with the improvements in high frequencies which was especially pronounced with female vocals and gave a greater sense of space and realism to instruments.

Bass extention was greatly improved too and the pace of music was enhanced as a result.

It was with the mid bass frequencies that I wasn't overly impressed as I felt that the Black Ravioli didn't provide as much clarity or separation as my Pulsar Points. To clarify this though, I must say that compared to not using anything extra, they are still a significant improvement.



My views are slightly more positive in this area now however.



First off, I've tried using two pads stacked now so that I can bypass the feet of my transport altogether and get the feet in a more central position (this really helps with the pulsar points). Sadly, I cannot hear any difference at all using more than one set. I guess this is good news financially. :thumbup:



So, what's changed over the last 50 hours or so of listening? What made me tell gordon that I dodn't want to send them back?



The mid bass clarity was my real bug bear initially and it still is but to a much lesser extent. I've been swapping between the ravioli and the Pulsar Points over and over during 3 or 4 hour listening sessions.



In the bass department, I cannot hear a difference between the ravioli and the Pulsars. Both provide a real boost. I remember Eric telling me he though the volume had been turned up when he tried them and I think this would pretty much be the bass extention improvements.



In the Mid bass, the Pulsars have better separation leaving the Ravioli sounds very slightly muddled in comparison but the difference is much less significant than I first thought and I could certainly live with it.



It's the highs though where the ravioli really leaves the Pulsars for dead. I'm a bit stuck for words as to describe what really happens. Nic said they clean the highs up, which seems very apt to me. They are certainly a lot clearer but also much more extended and defined. All vocals are massively improved and you hear so much more of the top end of instruments. It particularly improves orchestral sounds as wind and wood instruments sound much more realistic. I've never been impressed with the sound of piano through my Vollas but with the ravioli in place, piano sounds much more real even if it still lacks the scale needed to do it justice.



Listening with the ravioli in place for an extended period and then swapping them for Pulsar Points reveals quite a significant change. Everything just sounds 'less'. Taking those highs away is really soul destroying for the music. You miss the vocals first, they just don't sound real anymore or as 'breathy'; then you notice the sounds around the vocal don't leap at you as prominently anymore.



I still want to try them with a high mass base underneath them but have nothing suitable yet.



Gordon, can I send you a cheque rather than the Ravioli?



Richard

[Nic Rhodes]

Would these be suitable for a forum power buy by someone?

[iaria]

I have found something on the net about black ravioli :D~:-D~:grin:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mich2255/163529336/

Gerry

[Matt Horne]

a set of 4 should be on the way to me shortly to try.. now will I hear any difference... i'll be trying them under probably a dvd player (lex rt10) a dvhs player and possibly my tivo as well...



Matt

[Slartibartfast]

I am quite interested to try these. One of my Townshend Seismic Sinks has gone flat and can no longer "get it up", as it were, so I am looking at alternatives currently. :o~:-o~:eek:

[ricdiggle]

I am quite interested to try these. One of my Townshend Seismic Sinks has gone flat and can no longer "get it up", as it were, so I am looking at alternatives currently. :o~:-o~:eek:




Charlie - I'd be happy to send you some Pulsar Points to try too if you are interested.



Richard

[Gordon, Convergent-AV]

Ric//send Slarti four and send me a cheque...SORTED....



g





Thanks for your feedback.

[Uncle Eric]

Would these be suitable for a forum power buy by someone?


I like the product so much I asked Gordon to do a power-buy with these.



As usual, in an effort to help our members by not adding to the final cost of this product, AV talk does not charge any commision on this or any other official offers from our sponsors.

[ricdiggle]

Ric//send Slarti four and send me a cheque...SORTED....



g





Thanks for your feedback.




You are more than welcome Gordon.



What's the powerbuy price gonna be?



Richard

[Madge]

They are not little rubber feet.


Surely they perform the same function as LRF but do it a whole lot better I should think.

[Gordon, Convergent-AV]

Guys,



I will work on a price later in the week and post it up on the required forum.



Thanks Eric.

Gordon

[Gordon, Convergent-AV]

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&goto=22084 (http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&goto=220842&rid=29&SQ=1162387442#m sg_220842) 2&rid=29&SQ=1162387442#msg_220842

[mr cat]

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&goto=22084 (http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&goto=220842&rid=29&SQ=1162387442#m sg_220842) 2&rid=29&SQ=1162387442#msg_220842




are a set of these still being posted around our homes for us to demo..? :roll:

:D~:-D~:grin:

[Matt Horne]

Just received my demo set... blimey they are small...



I have stuck them under my tivo as thats getting the most use at the moment... more on them in a couple of days..



Matt

[Gordon, Convergent-AV]

Mr Cat: I do not have a limitless supply. Of those I had 4 are already out of circulation as Ric is keeping his..... This is also not the only forum that was offered a listen. I will endevour to try to get everyone who has already asked a set...but it'll take time.



Gordon

[Slartibartfast]

I've now had a chance to play about with a set of these. I'm not going to write a lot of purple prose about them; I think ricdiggle has covered most of it already. There are clear benefits in tightening up bass lines and they do make it easier to follow the notes. I've never heard a piano recording yet that sounded truly convincing to me. These move things a couple of steps nearer making it just a bit more believable, but nothing is ever going to give you the dynamic range and articulation of the real thing in the room.



Interestingly, I got the biggest benefits placing them under the Casablanca III. Rather than placing them under the existing feet, putting them next to the existing feet under the unit seemed to work best for me. They are just thick enough to lift the existing LRF's clear of the shelf. They are quite a bit thinner than the sorbothane feet I currently use so they have an added bonus of allowing a bit more room between the top of the processor and the next shelf, thus allowing slightly better ventilation - the CB3 runs seriously hot. The sorbothane feet help to combat the tendency of the rack/glass shelf to ring but I hadn't realised how much they muddy the sound until I compared them to the Black Ravioli.



Having only got the one set to try, I couldn't really test out the benefit of putting them under the transport as well. So I'm ordering up 3 sets to do some more serious listening tests with transport and power amps as well. I might also have another go at Keith Howard's Wavestats program to see if it's possible to measure some differences that do seem to be pretty audible.



Anyway, they get a :thumbup: from me. :clap:

[Gordon, Convergent-AV]

Thank you Slartibartbast. I think you'll like the effect of having all three sets in the system!



Gordon

[ricdiggle]

I've now had a chance to play about with a set of these. I'm not going to write a lot of purple prose about them; I think ricdiggle has covered most of it already. There are clear benefits in tightening up bass lines and they do make it easier to follow the notes. I've never heard a piano recording yet that sounded truly convincing to me. These move things a couple of steps nearer making it just a bit more believable, but nothing is ever going to give you the dynamic range and articulation of the real thing in the room.



Interestingly, I got the biggest benefits placing them under the Casablanca III. Rather than placing them under the existing feet, putting them next to the existing feet under the unit seemed to work best for me. They are just thick enough to lift the existing LRF's clear of the shelf. They are quite a bit thinner than the sorbothane feet I currently use so they have an added bonus of allowing a bit more room between the top of the processor and the next shelf, thus allowing slightly better ventilation - the CB3 runs seriously hot. The sorbothane feet help to combat the tendency of the rack/glass shelf to ring but I hadn't realised how much they muddy the sound until I compared them to the Black Ravioli.



Having only got the one set to try, I couldn't really test out the benefit of putting them under the transport as well. So I'm ordering up 3 sets to do some more serious listening tests with transport and power amps as well. I might also have another go at Keith Howard's Wavestats program to see if it's possible to measure some differences that do seem to be pretty audible.



Anyway, they get a :thumbup: from me. :clap:




That is interesting - I assume the Cassablanca is the DAC / processor?



Richard

[Uncle Eric]

That is interesting - I assume the Cassablanca is the DAC / processor?



Richard


Fully loaded and on-song probably the best processor out there. Whoops, the Lex boys will be after me if I'm not carefull :lol:

[ricdiggle]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">ricdiggle wrote on Thu, 09 November 2006 10:03</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">


That is interesting - I assume the Cassablanca is the DAC / processor?



Richard


Fully loaded and on-song probably the best processor out there. Whoops, the Lex boys will be after me if I'm not carefull :lol:




I do hope Sanjay drops by again :lol:



I've tried all sorts under my DAC and Processor and never heard any difference at all (on either my Tag AV32 or Lex). Same thing with Power Cords too.



Richard

[velodyneT100]

I have a htpc and listen to music via a hardrive and RME soundcard.



Where would I put these?

[Gordon, Convergent-AV]

Under the PC and under your amp I'd suggest. I have feedback from manufacturer about these little guys uses and how to use them. I'll post it all here sometime next week.



Gordon

[Madge]

Under the PC and under your amp I'd suggest. I have feedback from manufacturer about these little guys uses and how to use them. I'll post it all here sometime next week.



Gordon


With respect (and I'll buy you several beers if I'm wrong and drop you home, again!) there's so much noise going on inside a PC (I've stuck a simple probe in and checked on a scope) that I doubt that eliminating the microphonic noise (which I'm sure the Black Ravioli do) has that much effect. I'm very happy to agree that where microphonic noise is a big issue (ie most consumer electronics) they work though.

[Gordon, Convergent-AV]

I see....so at what point does eliminating noise have an effect...how little or how much are you allowed to have before you are able to tell us what we should do with regards to supporting our equipment? Perhaps you might want to head on over to the HTPC forums worldwide and tell them that as their PC's are so noisy internally there is little point in using them for any critical audio listening...and that if any of them actually think a PC is as good as a decent, low microphony CD player then they are sadly deluded.



When I've time, and inclination, I'll seek out an HTPC to try these with.



Gordon

[Nic Rhodes]

Sounds like easy beeers G, do you want your HCPC back ;)~;-)~:wink:

[iaria]

Looking at the various posts on how this Ravioli seems to make music come alive ect. and seeing that some of you that have tried the ravioli have what I call top end amps and cd players, how would they improve my system?? I don't have and expensive cd player, just a £250.00 dvd player and £300.00 av receiver, would I notice any difference?? I, you could say, am a little sceptical to say the least, and also where would the ravioli go?? under the dvd player or the amp??

Gerry

[ricdiggle]

Looking at the various posts on how this Ravioli seems to make music come alive ect. and seeing that some of you that have tried the ravioli have what I call top end amps and cd players, how would they improve my system?? I don't have and expensive cd player, just a £250.00 dvd player and £300.00 av receiver, would I notice any difference?? I, you could say, am a little sceptical to say the least, and also where would the ravioli go?? under the dvd player or the amp??

Gerry




Best bet is to try them under both. In my experience my Snazzio DVD player (£230) benefitted more than my more expensive kit. What you mustn't think though is that your kit will suddenly sound like it cost thousands of pounds. The Ravioli will simply allow you to hear more of what your current player / amp is capable of. It will sound better than it does probably but it won't suddenly turn a Denon into a Bel Canto.



Richard

[Madge]

I see....so at what point does eliminating noise have an effect...how little or how much are you allowed to have before you are able to tell us what we should do with regards to supporting our equipment? Perhaps you might want to head on over to the HTPC forums worldwide and tell them that as their PC's are so noisy internally there is little point in using them for any critical audio listening...and that if any of them actually think a PC is as good as a decent, low microphony CD player then they are sadly deluded.



When I've time, and inclination, I'll seek out an HTPC to try these with.



Gordon


You can borrow mine (very nearly acoustically silent and the soundcard is a Lynx 2B) :nod: . I'm very happy with the audio performance.

Look, I'm not doubting that they work and what they do, they do very well. I just don't see how they suit my application, because microphony isn't going to be the main problem. OTOH I'd like to see what they do placed underneath a table-mounted projector, because that's an environment where a product like this could produce a surprising difference.

[Kel.]

These make no difference to the sound at all. What a total waste of money lol. I wont even go on about the crazy prices.

[ricdiggle]

These make no difference to the sound at all. What a total waste of money lol. I wont even go on about the crazy prices.




Are you going to back that up with some kind of explanation? It may help others to know how you came to this conclusion rather than just blurt out insults.

[Kel.]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">Kel. wrote on Tue, 05 December 2006 18:21</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
These make no difference to the sound at all. What a total waste of money lol. I wont even go on about the crazy prices.




Are you going to back that up with some kind of explanation? It may help others to know how you came to this conclusion rather than just blurt out insults.
Who am I unsulting? You get people who are obsessed with Hi-Fi and buy crap like this instead of sitting back and enjoying the music.



It's in the same catagory as the wooden knobs costing hundreds of dollars that make your amplifier sound better :roll:



I take it you have some? :lol:

[baileych]

These make no difference to the sound at all.




Can I asked what equipment you auditioned them with and what equipment supports they were being used with or instead of?



It would be good to know when these might and might not make a difference.



Thanks,



Charles.

[ricdiggle]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">ricdiggle wrote on Tue, 05 December 2006 21:10</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">Kel. wrote on Tue, 05 December 2006 18:21</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
These make no difference to the sound at all. What a total waste of money lol. I wont even go on about the crazy prices.




Are you going to back that up with some kind of explanation? It may help others to know how you came to this conclusion rather than just blurt out insults.
Who am I unsulting? You get people who are obsessed with Hi-Fi and buy crap like this instead of sitting back and enjoying the music.



It's in the same catagory as the wooden knobs costing hundreds of dollars that make your amplifier sound better :roll:



I take it you have some? :lol:






I'll take that as a no to my original question then shall I?



Do you own a set of these yourself Kel or are you just guessing at their performance?



It really would be helpful for others to know how you reached these conclusions Kel.

[mr cat]

I'm open minded about these -but I'm waiting for my free demo :roll: beore I fork out any cash... :D~:-D~:grin:

[Nic Rhodes]

I would also be interested to know what you tried these on.

[Kel.]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">Kel. wrote on Tue, 05 December 2006 18:21</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
These make no difference to the sound at all.




Can I asked what equipment you auditioned them with and what equipment supports they were being used with or instead of?



It would be good to know when these might and might not make a difference.



Thanks,



Charles.


I would never waste my time to audition anything like this. Anyone claiming that sticking things under the feet of your Hi-Fi can somehow make the electronics of the unit perform better is off his rocker.

[Kel.]

I would also be interested to know what you tried these on.


They do actually work :o~:-o~:eek:



I noticed a clearer, more defined 'ping' from my microwave as my dinner finished cooking. :clap:

[Dimmy]

Kel.



Loudspeakers have a habit of exciting the boundaries of a room. If you play bass on your system you have doubtlessley felt the floor shake before, or indeed some surrounding furniture.



If you have electrical components which have mechanical elements, as most do, vibrations of even tiny amplitude can effect the mechanical performance of, for example, a CD transport.



Products like those in the thread here aim to aid in decoupling the electrical components of a hi-fi or home cinema from their surrounding environment by absorbing these vibrations before they reach the component. Much the same way as a dedicated equipment rack or pair of speaker stands will aim to do the same thing.



That might well sound silly to you, but factors such as these are important to people who take Hi-Fi and Home Cinema seriously.



If you are really that skeptical, why don't you ask for a demonstration and try them under your Linn. If you can't hear a difference then fair enough. Some people can, but comments with no basis are unfair.

[mr cat]

I've also tried different 'objects' under my components and they've all worked withvarious results - again, it depends on what kind of support you've got in the first place - rack, contrete / wooden floor etc...

but when I had a glass rack - I found that lightly inflated 9&quot; inner tubes worked wonders - when I say lightly inflated - this was so that each component lay about 1cm above the rack shelf...

now, I've got my system on solid wood and this works just as well :nod:

[baileych]

I would never waste my time to audition anything like this. Anyone claiming that sticking things under the feet of your Hi-Fi can somehow make the electronics of the unit perform better is off his rocker.






In this case your opinion is utterly worthless. If you haven't actually tested the product I don't know how you can, with a clear conscious, categorically state that they make no difference. You could claim that the world is flat and that anyone who does experiments to prove otherwise is wasting their time.



In answer to your original question, it is possible that you are insulting the people who make, sell or purchase these, however I'm fairly sure that &quot;black ravioli&quot; supporters are thick skinned enough not to care what you think. You seem to have insulted your own intelligence, though.



Perhaps if you are going to make baseless denigrations of a product you've never tested, you might have the manners not to do it in the sponsor's &quot;power buy&quot; thread. There's tons of rubbish on the market that makes no difference so nobody tests every snake oil under the sun, but if you're not going to &quot;waste your time&quot; on this particular one then perhaps stating &quot;I don't believe these will make any difference at all, I'm not going to bother to test them.&quot; rather than &quot;These make no difference to the sound at all.&quot; would have made your position a little clearer.



Anyway, thank you for clearing up the basis on which your opinion was formed.



Charles.

[Nic Rhodes]

Words fail me :( , quite how people can make comments on stuff they have never seen, heard or even tried to understand. :( :(

[Madge]

Words fail me :( , quite how people can make comments on stuff they have never seen, heard or even tried to understand. :( :(


:nod:



Just don't have a go at me for my yet-to-be-patented PCB-EMI-screening technology :lol:

[Nic Rhodes]

But now you have told me, it can't be patented :D~:-D~:grin:

[juboy]

I would never waste my time to audition anything like this. Anyone claiming that sticking things under the feet of your Hi-Fi can somehow make the electronics of the unit perform better is off his rocker.






You know the way the laws of physics dictate that bees can't fly, does that mean you believe that they don't?

[ricdiggle]

Since packing my main system into boxes, I had these spare as it were. I tried them under my Denon 3805 receiver and could hear no difference at all but I've recently bough a HD Media Box to replace my Snazio and was very disappointed that I could hear it's hard drive spinning away inside my pine cabinet. It was causing the shelf to vibrate slightly and the size of the cabinet amplified this into a pretty loud hum (I though I had a new ground loop for a while!) I put the Ravioli underneath the HD Mediabox and it cleared the problem instantly :thumbup: I'd really only just got it so cannot comment on any other effects the Ravioli might have had and due to the hum it makes without them, any tests would be pretty hard to compare anyway.



Richard

[Madge]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">Kel. wrote on Thu, 07 December 2006 03:48</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
I would never waste my time to audition anything like this. Anyone claiming that sticking things under the feet of your Hi-Fi can somehow make the electronics of the unit perform better is off his rocker.






You know the way the laws of physics dictate that bees can't fly, does that mean you believe that they don't?


Says who? Do you honestly believe that they dictate as much?

[juboy]

Madge, what I'm trying to say is that a myth that was put around that bees are suppoesdly unable to fly - even though we know for sure that they can - is something that many people accept, even though they know it's not true.



Seems to me that saying something can't possibly work without ever having tried it for yourself is a similar stance to take.



In this case there are people that have tried the product and who are clearly saying it does have an effect, yet Kel. (who hasn't tried it) is saying it can't possibly work because of preconceptions based only on what others have said in the first place.

[Madge]

In this case there are people that have tried the product and who are clearly saying it does have an effect, yet Kel. (who hasn't tried it) is saying it can't possibly work because of preconceptions based only on what others have said in the first place.


I've not tried them either, but I can see how they would work. To use the bumble-bee analogy, because I understand that the flight of insects more closely resembles that of helicopters (which also cannot fly if you use the model that predicts bumble bees can't fly) rather than that of aeroplanes, I highly doubt that bumble-bees somehow violate the laws of physics.



Or to put it more simply, it is more logical to doubt something you don't understand till you've experienced it than to accept it.

[Nic Rhodes]

Einstein once said something like the two great problems in the world were relativity and all that and turbulence. He was proud to have helped solve one.



Now you are unlikely to find someone dumb enough to work in both fields :roll: :roll: but now our understanding of turbulence modelling is now much better than it was in the classic 1930s paper that said bumble bees can't fly. The latest research has now confirmed bumble bees can now fly :o~:-o~:eek: but as the resident Beekeeper here I should have know that already :lol:

[Gordon, Convergent-AV]

So can anyone explain why spiders become deaf when you pull their legs off?



Gordon :o~:-o~:eek:

[martintyler]

they have ears on their legs?

[mr cat]

they can still hear you approaching - but unfortunately they're unable to run away now... :lol: :roll:

[SYNTHesis]

You know the way the laws of physics dictate that bees can't fly, does that mean you believe that they don't?




The Bee's should get into sub design, perhaps they'll be the first to get great bass out of a compact cabinet.

[juboy]

Or to put it more simply, it is more logical to doubt something you don't understand till you've experienced it than to accept it.




I don't agree. Logic dictates that we often HAVE to accept that which we cannot at that moment understand fully or even prove.



If not, I'd be interested to know at what age you reviewed the blood tests of those two older people who claimed to be your parents...

[Cessquill]

I've never seen my postman. Therefore, he doesn't exist.

[mariner]

So can anyone explain why spiders become deaf when you pull their legs off?



Gordon :o~:-o~:eek:




They land on their ears?

[Dimmy]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">Gordon, Convergent wrote on Tue, 12 December 2006 08:56</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
So can anyone explain why spiders become deaf when you pull their legs off?



Gordon :o~:-o~:eek:




They land on their ears?






The cillia (SP?) hairs on their legs are used to sense changes in air velocity/pressure, slightly similar to those in the cochlea of the human ear?



Just a guess. I have a Zoologist friend so I'll ask him :?~:-?~:???:

[Gordon, Convergent-AV]

To those folk trying to work out why spiders become deaf when you pull off their legs.....It's the punchline to an old childrens joke......





IE when the kid pulls off the spiders legs it becomes unable to respond to commands such as &quot;Left turn or quick march&quot; therefor, logic dictates pulling off it's legs has made it deaf..... :clap:



Gordon

[Dimmy]

To those folk trying to work out why spiders become deaf when you pull off their legs.....It's the punchline to an old childrens joke......





IE when the kid pulls off the spiders legs it becomes unable to respond to commands such as &quot;Left turn or quick march&quot; therefor, logic dictates pulling off it's legs has made it deaf..... :clap:



Gordon






I checked with a zoologist and it's true, moreover, my guess was accurate :o~:-o~:eek:

[Gordon, Convergent-AV]

Dimmy: Perhaps your friend can point us to the research where they did the leg pulling tests..... :lol:



Gordon

[Dimmy]

Dimmy: Perhaps your friend can point us to the research where they did the leg pulling tests..... :lol:



Gordon




I daren't ask :lol:

[Slartibartfast]

We like to pride ourselves on AV:Talk on taking a more technical approach to assessing the performance of AV components. If a particular phenomenon cannot be measured scientifically, then it probably doesn't exist, no matter what our own senses may tell us. I am publishing the results below in that spirit for discussion.



My idea was to use Keith Howard's Wavestats (http://www.audiosignal.co.uk/freeware.html)program to try and determine if there were any statistically significant differences when recording from my system with the Ravioli present/not present. If there is an audible difference, then there should be a measurable difference in the digitised version of the analogue waveform sent to the speakers. If not, then it is hard to justify why any difference should be audible.



I prepared a test signal consisting of 20 seconds of some solo violin and piano music (track 1 from here (http://www.amazon.com/Kreisler-Album-Joshua-Bell/dp/B00000426U)). This was preceded by the header file that Keith Howard's program requires for synchonisation and level matching. I created a test CD (44.1KHz sampling frequency) consisting of 12 repetitions of this test sequence. I then played this on my Theta Davdi 2 CD/DVD transport and recorded the tape output (analogue) from my Theta Casablanca III onto my PC using the Lynx 2B soundcard and Adobe Audition 1.0. This analogue signal is derived from the analogue outputs of the Xtreme quality DACs in the Casablanca and should exactly mirror the signal being sent to the speakers. I recorded at 44.1kHz, 16bit depth. As per Keith Howard's procedure, the digital sample clock used by the Lynx 2B was slaved off the digital output from my Theta David CD/DVD transport. This should guarantee a high degree of synchonisation between different test runs. The test procedure was carried out with the Ravioli under both the Casablanca processor and David CD/DVD transport, and for comparison when they were present under neither.



The first problem I encountered was one I spotted before (http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&amp;rid=14&amp;SQ=1168703192&amp;th=350&amp;goto=3 8335) when I tried to use Wavestats. For some reason, there is a degree of &quot;slew&quot; in the 1kHz test tone that forms part of Keith Howard's header. With further testing, I discovered that this effect comes about only when bass management is engaged on the Casablanca. With the front left/right channels set to full range, it doesn't happen. Strange! :shrug:



For these tests, I therefore turned the bass management off and used my front left/right full range. During the recording, the speakers were playing at normal listening levels since it is believed that the benefit that the Ravioli provide is to absorb vibration coming through the floor from the speakers.



Anyway, problem 2 was that I still wasn't getting decent synchronisation between different instances of the same test signal. However, never one to give up too easily, I modified a C program I found on the web that could perform pretty accurate (sinc function-based) resampling. Essentially I made this program search for the 0dBFS &quot;dirac&quot; at the beginning of the synchronisation signal and arrange that the output samples precisely hit the maximum of that pulse. This turned out to be quite fiddly to do. Once I got this program working then the synchronisation problem got a lot easier, but there was still some longer-term variability in the clock speeds that meant that differences tended to get worse towards the end of some of the test samples. In the end, I decided to discard any results where the penultimate sample was of significantly different amplitude. The results used for the comparison below therefore have been &quot;sanitised&quot; to that extent - the key thing we are trying to determine here is whether there is anything significantly different with/without the Ravioli.



Here are the results from Keith's Wavestats program. Each file consists of the 20 second violin music plus header:



<font color="blue">REFERENCE FILES:



c:\rav\Neither2_10.wav

c:\rav\Neither2_5.wav

c:\rav\Neither2_6.wav

c:\rav\Neither2_7.wav

c:\rav\Neither2_8.wav

c:\rav\Neither2_9.wav





COMPARISON FILES:



c:\rav\Both3_1.wav

c:\rav\Both3_10.wav

c:\rav\Both3_2.wav

c:\rav\Both3_3.wav

c:\rav\Both3_4.wav

c:\rav\Both3_5.wav

c:\rav\Both3_6.wav

c:\rav\Both3_7.wav

c:\rav\Both3_8.wav

c:\rav\Both3_9.wav





ANALYSIS PARAMETERS:



Impulse threshold 20000

Begin analysis after 17640 samples

Analyse over 890000 samples

Confidence level 99 per cent





RESULTS:



Largest single sample standard deviation within the reference files: 27.853 LSB, 16 bit

Average per sample standard deviation within the reference files: 2.761 LSB, 16 bit



Largest single sample standard deviation within the comparison files: 13.382 LSB, 16 bit

Average per sample standard deviation within the comparison files: 2.225 LSB, 16 bit



Number of statistically significant sample differences: 2227

Largest single sample difference: 6.13 LSB, 16 bit

Average per sample difference: .01 LSB, 16 bit

Accumulated difference: 5902.48 LSB, 16 bit</font>



As you can see, there is good consistency between the batch of 6 files where the Ravioli was present under neither component (standard deviation 2.761 * the least significant bit value = v. small). Similarly for the 10 files where the Ravioli was present under both components (standard deviation 2.225 * LSB). When you then look at the difference between the with/without scenario, I don't think the difference is significant - the largest single sample difference is only 6.13 * LSB. The total difference over 890,000 samples is only 5902.48 * LSB. When you consider the magnitude of the maximum differences within each batch of sample files, any difference caused by the Ravioli seems too small to be significant.



Anyway, having said all that, the Ravioli will still remain in my system. 8)~8-)~:cool:

[ricdiggle]

Wow. That's very interesting indeed. I wont pretend to understand most of but your conclusion seems very certain.



I have to ask though - why is it that we hear a difference?



Richard

[Dimmy]

Interesting experiment, Charlie. As we spoke about the other week, I don't think it's an exhaustive conclusion, but it's certainly indicative. Full marks for effort none-the-less :bow:

[Slartibartfast]

I wouldn't regard this result as definitive. There are plenty of ways to explain a null result. The particular track I chose, while being very familiar to me, may not be the best sequence to demonstrate the effect in the first place. The resolution of the measurement may not be sufficient to demonstrate the difference. It could be further improved because part of the 2 point something standard deviation in the nominally-identical files is down to the limited precision of the asynchronous resampling algorithm I used. This is close to 16-bit accurate but it could be better. If I were to increase the bit depth of the recording to 24 bit, I would have to rewrite the resampling program to use 64-bit arithmetic and increase the number of filter coefficients to the point where I think it would run seriously slowly. It would be quite a lot of work to do that with no guarantee of success.



However, since the effect is apparently so audible, you would expect to be able to measure it fairly easily even at 16-bit resolution. If you actually look at the difference file generated by Keith's program, it consists of pretty random noise about -55dB down. If you artificially amplify this and listen to it, it certainly sounds like pretty uniform white noise, rather than being modulated by the original data in any way.



Anyway, as ever, there is much to be learned by actually playing about with audio signals at the individual sample level. 8)~8-)~:cool: